I don't wish to start a debate about the character of various breads. But, why do I have to read and listen to the horrific details of children mauled to death by dogs (or a dog) on such a regular basis? It seams to me that the political will to solve the problem is absent due to the number of voters who are dog lovers ( I am not one, I have healthy normal relationships).

With an average of two peopled killed by dogs per year, why aren't we having a debate about the number of people killed by cars?

Your starter for ten is : Identify a dangerous dog so that a viable law can be passed to ban its type, breed or just look-alikey.


Politicians have struggled with this for decades.

Truth is that there is no way to identify a type or breed of dog that will attack humans, there are however human behavior patterns that will encourage any sort of dog to attack in certain circumstances, usually when it feels threatened and you as a human won't always understand why a dog feels threatened, you'd understand more if you were brought up with or around dogs but as you weren't then you will struggle to understand their requirements and psychology.

To put it very, very simply, in my family and over the past thirty years I have had three German Shepherds and a Golden Retriever, during that time I have raised two children to adulthood and at various times have had a house full of their friends all behaving like young children do, none of the dogs (other than the one I note below) I have owned have ever threatened any of those children, mainly because an adult (me or the wife) that the dog trusted has taken control of the situation and kept the dog in its "safe" place well away from a house full of screaming rampaging kids - its what you have to do as a responsible owner.

My current male GSD is a large example of the breed and weighs almost 40kg, and soft and obedient as he is I would not leave him alone with a child under 16 years of age, or indeed with a stranger of any age - he has expectations and requirements from his human family, he has a routine and his own space in the house and children are just too unpredictable with dogs, they are not toys.

Maybe because owners don't take the time or effort to train the dog or read at least one book on dog behaviour? Or in the recent case, keep a dog in a one bedroomed flat and (according to a neighbour) never take the dog out?

Just to add, one of the German Shepherds I had was euthanised at 18 months of age because it was VERY unpredictable in a house with 10 year old kids around all the time and after it had demonstrated this behavior over a period of time - again that is part of being a responsible owner, probably won't win me any friends but there you are.

Well, I for one applaud you. It shows that you understood your dogs behaviour and that he was too unpredictable, even if he went to a child free home. I'm sure any vet or behaviourist would have given you this advice too.

It was the RSPCA who ultimately advised us, they refused to take the dog into their kennels after we explained her behavior and advised that we would be incredibly irresponsible to offer her up for adoption in those circumstances and that there was only one solution, harsh but true.

Blimey. That's a good way to endear yourself to people.

Are you seriously suggesting that all dog lovers have 'unhealthy', 'abnormal' relationships? Really?

Double whammy for me. On two consecutive threads I have been accused of being a benefit cheat and because of having dogs; I have unhealthy, abnormal relationships! Only on Sin Bin

Its not dogs which are the problem, but people and circumstance. There are certain dogs and breeds which need a certain environment. Keep them in that environment and you wont have a problem, put them in an unsuitable one and you will.

A rescue dog of the size and breed reported in this instance is entirely unsuitable for a young family

How [iare[/i your sheep, anyway?

Being the proud owner of a Dogs Trust GSD myself I can only agree with you, our dog was abandoned by his previous owners when he was approx 18 months old, we don't know any details about him, he was unchipped and had no ID but after being found living on the streets by a dog warden he came to us with his own anxieties about abandonment which manifest themselves in the fact that he will not walk outside of our garden with one person, I spend all day with him (I work from home) and he has bonded with me in the way that all GSD's do but even with me he will not walk on his lead past the end of our drive and onto the street, if two of us go its fine.

The dog behaviourist at Dogs Trust (yes, free life access to a pooch psychiatrist) suggested that its his shepherding instinct not wanting to leave the rest of his family behind but its more than that as he goes into a blind panic fit, cannot be tempted by sausages (unbelievable but true) and will fight with me to get back to the house.

Its not a huge issue to us, we just have to take him out in pairs but he is approx four years old now and has been safe with us for two and half years so it does illustrate just how badly you can screw up a dogs mind by dumping it on the streets at a young age like a toy that you no longer want.

Its a great thing to take on a rescue dog but you also have to be aware that you have no idea of its history or any behaviour problems it may have had in the past or that its rehoming may have caused, they only have two defences when they feel threatened in a strange situation, run or fight, and if they choose the fight option then they only have their mouths to defend themselves with.

Both of my girls are rescue, my lurcher was found on the streets of Hull and taken straight to the pound where we reserved her less than a week later, and my staffy x collie was found on the streets of Wakefield, she had hours to live at the pound when a rescue centre picked her up and she was fostered for about a month before she came to us. We knew nothing about either of them and treated them as such and with caution and understanding until they were fully comfortable.

My behaviourist told me it can take upto 2 years for a rescue dog to feel safe, secure and fully comfortable in a new home. We've had them both for 6 years now and we're still learning about them.

Dogs are all descended from wolves, and on a basic level, we know what wolves do. They are a pack animal, they are predators, intelligent and collaborative, and hunt and kill to eat. They are not nasty or vicious or aggressive animals, they just do what they do, because that is how they survive.

The pack structure and communications are highly complex and very inflexible. Wolves (and dogs) know all the signs and signals and that is how they all get along passably well, as each knows its place in the pack, and if it steps out of line then it will be instantly dealt with. Killed, if its behaviour is deemed to endanger the pack.

As humans we've bred a wide variety of domesticated dogs from the wolf, but over centuries the breeding has been very selective, and targeted, like rapid evolution, to achieve the desired characteristics and eliminate others. So what you are left with is modern dogs, a mixture of millennia of wolf heritage, topped with rapid genetic tinkering.

In the home a dog only wants to know its place, and they are happiest and most chilled and best behaved once they accept that they are not in charge, and that they can (and must) leave me to deal with the postman. Anyone who is taught how to mould their dogs behaviour will very quickly notice a huge and amazing change. (I specifically am distinguishing behaviour from obedience; they are different things).

In summary, your dog's behaviour is entirely driven by what it sees as its job, linked to where it perceives its place in the pack (but in some breeds it is inbred that they are naturally inclined to forever challenge for a higher place in the pack, which is why some breeds just aren't suitable for family life). The dog can't help this; its genetic makeup dictates that that's how its behaviour works.

The good news is that you can thus very quickly alter most dogs' behaviour for the better, and get a more content dog, and all without saying a word, or getting any stress. You just need to understand the process and how it works from the dog's point of view. I say "just", but it's the wrong word, as a lot of what you think your dog thinks, or the effect of what you say and do, is very likely the direct opposite of what you think it is. This is why specialists in dog behaviour can come in and control your dog in seconds, and largely sort your dog in hours, when you have found it impossible. They can "think dog" and I'd say the majority of people both think they can do that, and are entirely wrong. They can't understand why however many times they yell at Rover, he still jumps up, fouls or whatever.

One should be mindful in these cases of lazy journalism before getting whipped up into a frenzy. One paper, i can't remember which one, thought it was a good idea to look at the womans facebook page, saw the first picture of the girl with a dog, a Mastiff, and ran with it on the front page. What they wouldn't tell you, of course, is that wasn't even the dog that killed her, so props to them for the accuracy and not fueling hatred of certain breeds

Sorry, probably a bit of an over reaction on my part to reading about Lexi Branson and what her mother did in an attempt to save a beautiful young girl.

Unfortunately, and this will be a hard thing to bear, her parents may be partly to blame in their lack of understanding of dog behaviour and dog breeds, harsh comment to make, but possibly true.

It's a hard thing to read about but Jerry is right, someone's clearly missed something somewhere that's led to a dog being in an unsuitable home. I don't want to speculate too much but a simple explanation could be that the dog, being a former stray, could have suffered some very nasty torment and a child pulling/poking at it's face could quite easily cause a panic.

So far as I can work out from the brief reports, experts reckon the dog is a cross between probably a bulldog and a bull terrier. Also, it had been wandering in a park, found and captured by the dog warden. It was about 7 or 8 years old.

When they went to get the dog from the rescue centre, there was a sign stating it was unsuitable for families with small children, but it is alleged that seeing this and querying it, they were told it was "all right as long as you don't let it jump up".

I don't want to be harsh on the mother, though anything anyone says will not make her feel any worse than she does, and I can understand why she is looking for someone else to blame, but really, for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would buy a dog that size and that age, which had been found roaming loose and whose character could have been anything, and even consider putting it in the same room as a small child.

Is there anyone else on here that if they'd been her would have taken that dog home to their small daughter?

My dog, a 6 year old springer x collie, is the most placid, laid back dog I've ever owned. Around two years ago he developed a dislike of attention from young (7-10 years old), blonde girls. If one comes close, he simply turns his head and issues a low, gentle growl.

Now bearing in mind that I've had him from 10 weeks old, this behaviour only manifested itself a couple of years ago and I cannot recollect a single incident where he's had a bad encounter with a young girl, I'm at a complete loss to any explanation for this behaviour. I am now wary of any young girl approaching him but am frankly amazed at the behaviour of some parents. During the Summer we were walking along the high street and while waiting to cross the road, a mother and her two children came behind us. The girl of around 8 years, simply said "lovely doggy" and wrapped her arms around his neck. When I berated the mother for allowing her daughter to behave in such a way with a strange dog, she told me that if I had "a dangerous dog, I shouldn't let it out in public".

I simply walked away shaking my head

I once had a little boy, probably no older than three years old, run up to our 40kg GSD who was almost as tall as the kid himself, put his arm over the dogs shoulder and kiss the back of the dogs head while the parents stood and watched, complete strangers in a park, it was cute to see but of course the first thing a dog does is to turn its head to see what the hell is going on & could easily have knocked the kid over, you've also got a dog with a mouth as wide as the kids head now within inches of the kids face and a more nervous dog could have become very defensive - all was well because I had him on a short lead and he is a placid dog but completely irresponsible behaviour from the parents.

I've often been asked by parents of young kids in the park if their kids can stroke him and we're always happy to oblige when the dog is sitting and I am holding his head so that he doesn't turn quickly when the kid approaches, dogs are often more predictable in their behaviour than kids.

I thought were were in for another barm/bread cake debate...

Dog ownership is similar to gun ownership, in that both, once they get in the wrong hands, become very, very dangerous.

I still can't understand how a dog, especially of the bulldog variety, can so easily be obtained by ANYBODY, with no form of licensing or investigation into a potential owner's background - What is even more astounding, is that it is almost universally accepted that a lot of these bull-type breeds, have become some sort of status symbol for the more undesirable members of society and yet we still allow the purchasing of these animals to be as simple as buying a loaf of bread.

From all the various bits of evidence that has emerged about this present tragedy, my own opinion is that to leave that poor girl in a room alone with a loaded gun, would have been safer than leaving her with that dog - It pains me to blame the parent, because she will have to live with the horrific incident for the rest of her life, but her parental judgement is probably on a par with when the McCann's decided a night out with their mates was a good idea.

my brothers 2 year old 40kg+ labweiler is a very boisterous and playful dog, he has his issues as well as he was never socialised properly (left in a garden with a bunch of toddlers to play with him until my brother got him at 10 months). He's great with kids most of the time but he is very easily unsettled when he's in unfamiliar surroundings or around other dogs that he doesn't know. He's very intelligent in that you can see he plays very differently with me (all 6'4 of me) as opposed to how he plays with young children but that doesn't mean we'd leave him alone with children.

Dog owners need to know how to be in control of their dogs, and unfortunately how to cater for absolute idiots and their dogs. We went to park a few weeks ago and 2 different dogs ran up to the aforementioned dog, one a black lab that was off lead and ran straight up, got right in his face and started growling. Milo stood tall but didn't even flinch as he was on lead and my brother commanded him to stay. The other dog then got closer so my brother pushed it away with his leg (not kicked, literally walked into it) and the owner looked like she was going to flip and didn't even try getting hold of her dog and just waited for it to walk away which it did after my brother shouted at it.

There are simply too many idiots out there, and not just the people who want a 'status dog' to look hard, there are a lot of people that just don't realise their dogs are capable of doing damage to both other dogs and people.

Exactly - Your post is a good one as it exposes the folly of the present system for dog ownership.

Your brother sounds like a good 'dogowner', while the other person you mention sounds like the absolute opposite, yet it is as easy for either to get hold of a dog.... The problem is that in this country, we see the ownership of a dog as almost a right, in the same way that Americans see gun ownership similarly.

In the same way that many sensible observers see a shake up to the gun ownership laws in the US as an absolute must, then, in this country, we need similar concerning the owning and purchasing of dogs.