Consultation closes today (though doubtless it's a sham, and decisions have as per already been made) on the shameful plans to continue driving a coach and horses through ordinary people's access to justice. Foremost amongst the plans is that no longer will a person arrested be able to call his or her own solicitor, instead they will get whatever muppet is covering those cells that day. Unless they pay, of course. As ever, the rich can get the lawyer they want. Added to a plan to impose yet more swingeing cuts to criminal legal aid across the board, in addition to 30% in the past 5 years, and a stated desire to close down 75% of the solicitors offices doing criminal law across the country, this is a recipe for miscarriages of justice. In future, you will get effectively Tesco criminal law, like value beans, and if you want justice but can't pay, well, tough. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22762984 The most evil government in UK history? Well, a good candidate.

Consultation closes today (though doubtless it's a sham, and decisions have as per already been made) on the shameful plans to continue driving a coach and horses through ordinary people's access to justice. Foremost amongst the plans is that no longer will a person arrested be able to call his or her own solicitor, instead they will get whatever muppet is covering those cells that day. Unless they pay, of course. As ever, the rich can get the lawyer they want. Added to a plan to impose yet more swingeing cuts to criminal legal aid across the board, in addition to 30% in the past 5 years, and a stated desire to close down 75% of the solicitors offices doing criminal law across the country, this is a recipe for miscarriages of justice. In future, you will get effectively Tesco criminal law, like value beans, and if you want justice but can't pay, well, tough. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22762984 The most evil government in UK history? Well, a good candidate.

Easily the most evil in living memory.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Consultation closes today (though doubtless it's a sham, and decisions have as per already been made) on the shameful plans to continue driving a coach and horses through ordinary people's access to justice. Foremost amongst the plans is that no longer will a person arrested be able to call his or her own solicitor, instead they will get whatever muppet is covering those cells that day. Unless they pay, of course. As ever, the rich can get the lawyer they want. Added to a plan to impose yet more swingeing cuts to criminal legal aid across the board, in addition to 30% in the past 5 years, and a stated desire to close down 75% of the solicitors offices doing criminal law across the country, this is a recipe for miscarriages of justice. In future, you will get effectively Tesco criminal law, like value beans, and if you want justice but can't pay, well, tough. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22762984 The most evil government in UK history? Well, a good candidate.'" Yes. I mentioned this on one of the other threads a week or two ago. Not only the criminal justice system but also access to legal aid generally is much restricted. Also single firm's get legal aid franchises in certain disciplines covering great areas of the country. That makes it hard for them to take on all cases as they can be too busy but not just that - if your business is reliant on a franchise it doesn't take a genius to work out that you may not get a renewal if you do a good job in representing people against government bodies!

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Consultation closes today (though doubtless it's a sham, and decisions have as per already been made) on the shameful plans to continue driving a coach and horses through ordinary people's access to justice. Foremost amongst the plans is that no longer will a person arrested be able to call his or her own solicitor, instead they will get whatever muppet is covering those cells that day. Unless they pay, of course. As ever, the rich can get the lawyer they want. Added to a plan to impose yet more swingeing cuts to criminal legal aid across the board, in addition to 30% in the past 5 years, and a stated desire to close down 75% of the solicitors offices doing criminal law across the country, this is a recipe for miscarriages of justice. In future, you will get effectively Tesco criminal law, like value beans, and if you want justice but can't pay, well, tough. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22762984 The most evil government in UK history? Well, a good candidate.'" Yes. I mentioned this on one of the other threads a week or two ago. Not only the criminal justice system but also access to legal aid generally is much restricted. Also single firm's get legal aid franchises in certain disciplines covering great areas of the country. That makes it hard for them to take on all cases as they can be too busy but not just that - if your business is reliant on a franchise it doesn't take a genius to work out that you may not get a renewal if you do a good job in representing people against government bodies!

I would argue that the effect on Civil Law is far more serious than on criminal law.

From now on couples who separate will not be eligible for legal aid in disputes about contact and residency of their children.
There are some exceptions ie in cases of Domestic violence. So if you split up and your ex wont let you see your kids you will not get legal aid. If you take it to court and your ex alleges domestic violence they will get legal aid and a solicitor but you will not.

What this will mean is that judges will have to deal with these issues themselves. In reality they will refer most of them to either Cafcass or Local Authorities to report to court. Neither of these agencies can manage any increase in work when they are all overworked as it is. They will then be forced to juggle their private law work with their child protection duties with the net result children are going to be left in a more vulnerable situation. The net result is that children are going to be left in realy vulnerable situations.

There will be a huge number of kids who will now end up losing contact with their parents following divorce with no real legal redress unless you become litigant in person ( lippy) or pay for your own legal aid.
Allied to this there is now no legal aid to deal with divorce ancilliary matters such as finances, pensions etc. This will all now be done by the parties themselves and a judge will oversee it. The fact that judges will not be interested in dealing with lippys who will be turning up at court with hundreds of documents about their finances is irrelevant.

Anyone with a social conscience SHOULD at least take a couple of seconds to a) sign the petition against this madness and b) spread the link to the petition as widely as you can Save UK Justice: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48628

Anyone with a social conscience SHOULD at least take a couple of seconds to a) sign the petition against this madness and b) spread the link to the petition as widely as you can Save UK Justice: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48628

Some may amazed to find out just how badly paid criminal law is.

A junior solicitor in the shires is probably looking at £18-£30K. And for this money they will be out at all hours of the day and night, weekends, etc.. dealing with people at police stations.

Having spent several years studying followed by a 2 year apprenticeship, the salary is bugger all. Which is why no-one wants to do it and the cool kids opt for more lucrative areas of practice.

If this goes ahead they will be out of a job. Senior criminal lawyers are applying to become judges before their income goes. Most local firms with a significant criminal practice will go bust.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Anyone with a social conscience SHOULD at least take a couple of seconds to a) sign the petition against this madness and b) spread the link to the petition as widely as you can Save UK Justice: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48628'" Done it.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Anyone with a social conscience SHOULD at least take a couple of seconds to a) sign the petition against this madness and b) spread the link to the petition as widely as you can Save UK Justice: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48628'" Done it.

The system is already seeing lots of defendants self representing. This will increase if legal aid is cut and stricter means testing is implemented.

Cases take 3 times as long as they stand there arguing irrelevant points, whilst judges and prosecuting lawyers bend over backwards to try and make the whole thing work (often coming very close to compromising their independence in the process).

People who have good defences are plading guilty just to get it over and done with. The obviously guilty run hopeless defences, because they don't understand the law or points the prosecution has to prove.

The whole thing is an absolute cluster. And will end up costing more in the long-term with extra court time required and endless appeals.

As important as those issues undoubtedly are, I wouldn't say they were 'far more serious' than an innocent person having to spend time in prison for want of an adequate defence lawyer.

Edited for accuracy

That depends on if it is your ex that stops you seeing your children or your kids get taken into care inappropriately because there are not enough legal safeguards in place to protect them or if children get killed because SWs are so overworked they cannot do what needs to be done to protect them.

It doesn't depend on that at all. I've already stated that the issues you describe are very important, but I really don't see how you can say that one is 'far more important' than the other. Both are equally important, particularly to those directly affected.

No need to worry (although the tone of the piece suggests a certain arrogance / flippancy sarcasm?): www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... rnalSearch

No need to worry (although the tone of the piece suggests a certain arrogance / flippancy sarcasm?): www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... rnalSearch

From that Grayling's quotes in that article:


Half of which will be prosecution costs. But anyway, if there are single trials costing that much, why not ADDRESS THE PROBLEM OF SINGLE TRIALS COSTING THAT MUCH you fscking moron. They ahve NOTHING to do with price competitive tendering, or the massed ranks of poorly paid criminal defence lawyers, thousands of whom fear for their jobs.


Disingenuous rubbish. If that were true, then what is the point of the changes? Bored. Chhris?


But most defendants do not KNOW a barrister to choose one. Most Do know "their" solicitor - yet will have no choice to use their solicitor, one will be imposed. The State which is prosecuting you dictates the lawyer who will represent you.


Horrendous pie-in-the-sky. We all know what he wants - a couple of huge national providers, and screw the rest. Entirely price driven. He expects thousands of firms to suddenly merge into regional giants, and obtain funding to do so, move all their respective staff, put in place everything that is required for a major business, just to bid for contracts they may very well not get, and if they do, will be at maybe at least 30% less money than even the pay now? Who is he to tell thousands of individual solicitor firms to get involved in wholesale and huge mergers? Do you believe this?



No it isn't, you moron. Thousands of solicitors (and barristers, and judges too) accuse you of it, not just one. This is precisely what your reforms are bent on doing.

Also not sure how someone with income of "about" £100,000 or whatever vague word he used (code for alot less) could afford their share of the £10 million!

Another nasty feature that has emerged with this lot is that they have become trolls as well, they think nothing of coming out like this (well, this is a very mild one compared to some of the bile) and ignorantly and rudely dismissing the genuine concerns of serious lawyers, even whole organisations, as just diguised fakery and self-interest.

Just as a matter of interest, what does this equate to in monetary terms. I know 'poorly paid' is relevant to each occupation and the salaries within it and don't expect them to earn the same as a 'poorly paid' shelf stacker at ASDA. In my area of work, poorly paid would equate to around £20k, whereas I have seen salaries as high as £85k in London for similar work.

£20k would not be unusual for a criminal aid lawyer in the provinces

Isn't abetting a crime in the provinces?

That is amazingly low, especially when you consider the training that goes into becoming a lawyer/solicitor. Why would anyone bother when you can get almost twice that by training as a plumber or electrician.

They are all greedy basstard fat cats who are attracted by cuts in pay of 30% in a good year, spending nights in police cells with some of society's misfits and outcasts and worst criminals, and working 14 hour days.

In fact there's a reasonable analogy between your average police station lawyer and an experienced hospital nurse; neither of them do it for the money, and both get regularly dumped on by the "government". The big difference is people love nurses and hate lawyers, but that hasn't helped the nurses much.

'People hate lawyers'



When I was doing some work for a doctor once he said 'there are certain people who should never admit to what they do on holiday' these were doctors (someone has always got a problem with some body part), plumbers (someone will have a dodgy boiler) and lawyers (because two weeks by the pool on your own is a long time !!)

Seconded.

I have quite a few friends who are practising.

£18K-30K is the going rate for a criminal solicitor in the provinces. This can be added to by doing some 'duty' work (courts / police stations - unsociable hours), but it is rare to see anyone earn much more than £40K. During out of hours work the chances are the copper sitting opposite you in the interview room is earning more than you are.

Barristers do not fare better. 4 year qualified criminal barrister in Leeds billing £60K. They lose 1/3 in chambers fees and expenses, which leaves them with £40K, on which they then have to pay tax. Plus a barrister is self-employed, so no benefits of paid holidays etc...

By way of contrast, in 'commercial' law salaries can reach £100K p/a for newly qualified solicitors, albeit you would have to go to London to get this. One of my mates from uni qualified as a barrister in a commercial set in Manchester. He billed £120K in his first 8 months thereafter. Even taking into account losing 1/3 to expenses and chambers fees, then tax, that is one heck of a lot of money.

You can (just about) make a reasonable living from criminal law at the moment. But you could probably earn more as an estate agent or used car salesman, no disrespect to either of these intended. And they don't have to spend several years studying and training to get there.

If the government kick the out of it this area of law will struggle to attract decent graduates.

Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago.

I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration?

It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/12/3lscrewed[/url the system for all it's worth.

Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2336003/15m-just-firm-legal-aid-gravy-train-Scale-taxpayers-revealed-Coalition-vows-save-200m.html?ito=feeds-newsxmltrough[/url.

No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet.......