Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036

Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036

Quote ="Durham Giant"Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036'" People need to stand up to all types of political bullying.

Quote ="Durham Giant"Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036'" People need to stand up to all types of political bullying.

Hardly just "now". This has been a method, among arch-Zionists of countering criticism of the behaviour of the state of Israel for years.

In these two cases, the claims are even more desperate than usual.

Mind, good to see Murdoch caving straight in to it – mind, as a right-wing religious nut himself, he probably sides with the Zionists. And of course, there are a lot of Christian Zionists over in the US these days that he won't want to upset either.

Oh good another chance for you to prattle on in support of terrorists and how brave they are.

And another chance for people to say anti-semitic things and then complain that you ‘cant say anything these days without being accused of being anti-semitic’



how boring.

The cartoon is offensive, how do I know? Because it offended people.

If the Sunday times was happy to offend people then it should stand by it. Its pretty clear that that wasn’t their intention and as such they have apologised for not being careful in how they communicated the point. That is fine, it is right and it is a sign of a healthy democracy.

The Sunday times was and is free to print offensive things, as we have seen, people are and will be free to be offended by them, This is a good thing, this is how free speech works. You are free to make these comments and draw these pictures, and people are free to judge you on your words and communications. Free speech works both ways, its not only your right to criticise the other side, but their right to criticise you.

Get over it, get over yourself. If you don’t want to be labelled an anti-semite, don’t do things which could be construed as anti-semitic. If you dont believe what you are saying to be anti-semitic then stand by it, but it is pathetic to argue people shouldn’t be offended by it, or express their offence because that would be you trying to shut down their argument by claiming they are trying to shut down, it is the height of hypocrisy.

Or: another opportunity for you to show off your nationalistic, neo-fascist credentials by getting in quickly to pretend that criticism is a synonym for bigotry.



By which logic, you're offensive simply if I say that I'm offended by you.

I haven’t accused anyone of bigotry or anything else other than the specific accusation I made against one poster who has defended terrorists and claimed they are brave. This is you, doing exactly what you have accused people of doing in relation to the cartoon. You have taken a massively hypocritical standpoint.

And that is fine, what is offensive to one person isn’t to another. If you want think I am offensive then that is your prerogative, im not going to tell you that you are wrong. But frankly, in this context, I don’t mind, I think you have taken a massively hypocritical standpoint on this specific issue, and I find your previous posts on the wider middle east issue where you have needed to ‘pick a side’ ignoring pretty much all nuance aswell as downplaying any Palestinian/Arab aggression wrong. Because we have two, such clearly opposed standpoints I would expect you would probably find some of it offensive and there is no problem with that.

However had I worded something which left room for people to misinterpret my intention, of if I had worded something which read slightly different to what I intended, and that led to offence by invoking damaging and hurtful stereotypes then I probably would apologise.

No. You just leapt in to help deflect from the issue in the OP – even though nobody had mentioned 'terrorists' and even though nobody had posted anything that was anti-semitic.

You have also made it clear that the whole topic is, according to you, "boring" ~yawn~

In other words, criticism of policies designed to steal land and, therefore, get rid of the people who now live and work on it, are "boring".



No. It's okay. You wish to deflect criticism of the state of Israel by siding with those who say that they are 'offended' by criticism of the state of Israel.

That's entirely your decision.

The fact that this exact same method of attempting to deflect criticism has been used for years is obviously quite beside the point. It's sad that you appear so readily to have fallen for this same approach.

Actually, rather than start a new thread: [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.htmlIsrael's racist policy to stop Ethiopian Jews breeding by giving them contraceptives without consent revealed.[/url

I didn’t deflect anything, it was prediction of what this thread will become. Like most threads which said poster posts on with regards to Israel.

Not the whole topic, but one which will descend in to the type of nonsense the last isreal related thread did. That would be boring.
That is a lovely strawman. Maybe a farmer can use it. I cant.

I have no problem with anyone criticising anything they like.

I do think people, like yourself, who want to be able to criticise what they want, but see anyone judging them for their standpoints as shutting down the debate, as huge hypocrites. You could start spouting Mein Kampf if you want, I wouldn’t try and stop you, but I would make my judgement of you for your decision to do so.
Criticise the state of Israel all you want, it’s a free country, just don’t think that because you want to criticise Israel and put it in pretty strong terms that makes you are immune from criticism yourself and anyone who does criticise you for doing so, or believes some or all of what you are saying is anti-semitic or just generally offensive only feels that way or would only say that to shut down your debate.

And you are trying to do exactly the same thing, by not addressing the criticism of the cartoon or the statements on their own merits, but as part of an attempt to shut down the debate.

It isn’t me who has ‘fallen so readily’ for it. I haven’t forwarded any opinion on whether I think it is anti-semitic or not. It is you who has simply fallen for the other side of the coin, where any claim of anti-semitism is a defence of Israel also a tactic used for years.

And my prediction comes true.

Had Dally posted a link to the daily, daily mail muslim threat nonsense on a thread about islamophobia you would have jumped down his throat with accusations of racism and xenophobia quicker than you could say ‘hitlers favourite newspaper’.

No. You did not 'predict' a story about the state of Israel behaving in a racist manner against a group of Jewish people.

It would be hilarious, though, to see you claim howhis was anti-semitic, given that both victims and perpetrators are Jewish.

No my prediction was that this thread regarding anti-semitism would descend in to the usual anti-israel mud throwing. Its exactly what you have done. You couldnt miss the opportunity.

I must say, your defence of the state of Israel in this case could be perceived as quite racist.

At this rate, you'll be in Oz for the start of the NRL season.

I havent made any comment on it at all.

There was an interesting edition of Beyond Belief on R4 yesterday that discussed the rise in attacks on Jews in Europe. Along the way it was pointed out that the anti-Israel/anti-Jew/anti-Semite conflation is used by people and organisations on [iboth[/i sides of the argument. The pro-Israeli side uses it to attack any criticism of the state as being anti-Semitic, while the ant-Jewish side tends to use it to excuse anti-Semitic remarks as being criticism of Israel and it's policies.

I didn't.

You, however, launched yourself on here as, in effect, supporting a classic way of stifling debate about the behaviour of the state of Israel.

You could have posted something about the opening post. You didn't. You posted your 'prediction' of how the thread would turn into something that, at that point anyway, it had not become. In so doing, you – and you alone – changed the nature of the thread.

Well done.

Quote ="Durham Giant"Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036'" Back on thread.... I think it was the timing of the cartoon that caused most offence, although I would imagine the anti-Semite card would have been played, albeit on a slightly less public scale. The way in which Israeli people treat Palestinians is atrocious, I understand that besides building on land that doesn't belong to them, there are many racially aggravated assaults without any motive or provocation. the US might hear us!

Quote ="Durham Giant"Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036'" Back on thread.... I think it was the timing of the cartoon that caused most offence, although I would imagine the anti-Semite card would have been played, albeit on a slightly less public scale. The way in which Israeli people treat Palestinians is atrocious, I understand that besides building on land that doesn't belong to them, there are many racially aggravated assaults without any motive or provocation. the US might hear us!

No. Of course not.



In other words, this thread has become what I said – anti-semitic etc. Thus, criticising the racist actions of the state of Israel against a group of Jewish people is 'anti-semitic'.

These are not opposites.

I didnt start posting irrelevant anti-israeli posts, you did. The OP hasnt openly and neutrally opened a debate on the nature of anti-semitism, there is a clear and obvious bias in his post and standpoint and previous posts. It was addressed as it should have been. The fact my prediction came through within in a page of it being posted pretty much means my decision to make that prediction defends itself.

No, not in other words. In the words I used. Or Actually, if you wanted to use other words you could have used the other words I actually used to clarify it for you

I didn’t accuse you of being anti-semitic. At all. You are, quite literally, arguing that any criticism of your anti-israeli argument is only accusing you of being anti-semitic. You are using anti-semitism as a defense for your anti-israel sentiments, not by saying anti-semitic things but by arguing that disagreeing with your anti-israel stance (or even saying that your anti-israel arguments aren’t relevant here) is accusing you of being anti-semitic.

And I'm not pretending that a post that criticism of the [ustate of Israel[/u – not Israel per se or Israelis per se – is the same as criticism of/attacks on Israel or Israelis per se.

You, apparently, cannot – or will not – understand the difference and, on the basis not of what was posted but what you 'predict' and what you claim you know of the OP's 'form', you decided to attempt to cast aspersions on the OP without even bothering to deal with it.

The poster has previously posted in favour of terrorists and stated they are brave, that isn’t casting aspersions it is a fact.

By anti-israeli I assumed we would have all be talking about the state of Israel rather than an irrational hatred of Tal Ben Haim and Eyel Berkovic and other individual israeli’s

I struggle to understand how one would start a post without bias. Surely, the fact that a thread has been started on any subject would identify that the OP has an opinion on the matter and therefore a bias?

The debate was opened by opining that anti-semitism is being used as an excuse for poor political policies, you are the only contributor to the thread who hasn't continued with the debate theme by stating that the whole thread is anti-semitic and therefore should not be discussed.

One might well ask: terrorists according to whom? Did you accept that Nelson Mandela was a 'terrorist' because Margaret Thatcher said so?

And that does not change the fact that you decided that, rather than discuss the topic, as the discussion had begun – not how you predicted it would go – you would make a post that would, straight away, discredit the OP and the topic as being discussed at the time.



Good. At least we have that clear. But there are reasons for being exceptionally clear about the issue, which using the phrase 'the state of Israel' does – hopefully avoiding (at least to an extent) precisely the kind of response that the OP was about and, indeed, the reaction that you leapt in with.