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| I have been with my car insurer for 5 years. I have had one minor bump in that time about two years ago.
A few days ago they asked me to update my details before sending out my renewal.
Today i got an Email saying they could not offer me insurance for the coming year. No explanation etc.
The only thing i can think off is they asked if i had ever been convicted of a criminal offence. I said yes.
This was over 25 years ago.
Does the Rehabilitation of offenders act cover this would i be OK to not disclose it when i look for another insurer.
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| Unless something has changed in the last couple of years, policyholders are not obliged to notify insurers of spent convictions.
In other words, if your conviction is spent, and you are asked if you have a conviction, you can say no.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"I have been with my car insurer for 5 years. I have had one minor bump in that time about two years ago.
A few days ago they asked me to update my details before sending out my renewal.
Today i got an Email saying they could not offer me insurance for the coming year. No explanation etc.
The only thing i can think off is they asked if i had ever been convicted of a criminal offence. I said yes.
This was over 25 years ago.
Does the Rehabilitation of offenders act cover this would i be OK to not disclose it when i look for another insurer.'"
I was refused renewal of house insurance last year, I immediately thought it was due to flood risk (being in a flood area) so I rang and asked them why as I had taken out a flood risk survey as part of the planning process and was told to raise the levels by 1.300m. To my surprise it was nothing to do with flood risk but the number of habitable rooms and I exceed the maximum they will now insure. I went to the AA and they not only insured me, but were miles cheaper than my previous insurer who I had been loyal to for 5 years.
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| Quote ="The Video Ref"Unless something has changed in the last couple of years, policyholders are not obliged to notify insurers of spent convictions.
In other words, if your conviction is spent, and you are asked if you have a conviction, you can say no.'"
You'd think so, but I wouldn't bet on it. If they ask the question then the majority view is that you have to give an honest answer. This is because an insurance contract is one of what they call "utmost good faith" so they can ask what they like, and even if they don't you are STILL obliged to tell them about anything that would affect their consideration of your application for insurance. The issue is whether a prudent insurer might reasonably be influenced by the information. So the conviction would have to be one that was arguably of relevance. For example, insurance fraud, reckless driving, or dishonesty.
The law is a bit of an ass on this one tbh. On the face of it, you'd say that you could simply answer "no" if a conviction is spent. The ROO Act simply states:
Quote (2)Subject to the provisions of any order made under subsection (4) below, where a question seeking information with respect to a person’s previous convictions, offences, conduct or circumstances is put to him or to any other person otherwise than in proceedings before a judicial authority—
(a)the question shall be treated as not relating to spent convictions or to any circumstances ancillary to spent convictions, and the answer thereto may be framed accordingly; and
(b)the person questioned shall not be subjected to any liability or otherwise prejudiced in law by reason of any failure to acknowledge or disclose a spent conviction or any circumstances ancillary to a spent conviction in his answer to the question. '"
On the face of that people say you can simply answer "No", but others caution that the phrase "framed accordingly" does not mean you can lie, but that you should put something like: "I do not have any previous convictions that I am required to disclose". They say that if Parliament had wanted to authorise lying, it could have clearly said so.
There is a lot of conflicting information and views. You'd think the FOS ("Ombudsman"icon_wink.gif would definitively know, but seemingly not - see the article I link to below, which, to me, if anything, suggests that you can only give a "framed" answer, and not an incorrect answer. And taking the FOS article as a whole, I get the impression this is their view too. But if they take into account the existence of spent convictions then you can sue them, and plus the Ombudsman would award you compo.
[url=http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/25/25-disclosure-of-spent-motoring-convictions.htm The FOS[/url(and the decision he cites) suggest that if you do honestly and fully answer, and they decline cover on grounds of a spent conviction, then that is unlawful. You would have a winning claim for breach of statutory duty. But - how would you prove it?
If you feel strongly about it, I suppose you could write to them and demand to know why they rejected the application. Say that as you know of no other reason, if they don't tell you, then you will assume that they have acted unlawfully by taking into account a spent conviction (or the possibility from your 'framed' answer that you likely have at least one) and will issue a claim and seek damages.
Not a very satisfactory situation at all. As you will gather, I don't trust motor insurers one inch, and would caution against anything that they could seek to take advantage of as if the occasion arises, they will invariably try. But then I am mad, so probably you should disregard the above.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
Not a very satisfactory situation at all. As you will gather, I don't trust motor insurers one inch, and would caution against anything that they could seek to take advantage of as if the occasion arises, they will invariably try. But then I am mad, so probably you should disregard the above.'"
Being mad does not mean you dont know the Law
I think what you say sums up what i had checked up on which is that the law is pretty much framed in a way that it is all down to interpretation and that the power of an insurance company is likely to outweigh any individuals abilty to challenge it.
Bollocks will have to find another insurance company which does not have yes and no answers on their form.
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| Update
Because i was turned down for Insurance by Swiftcover my previous insurance company because of having a non driving offence i now find that this makes it harder for me to get cover because now i have to answer yes to the question have you ever being refused Insurance.
If you answer yes to this question it automatically means some insurance companies wont even give yoiu a quote and do not even want any explanation.
On the basis of having a criminal conviction it appears the following companies (according to comparison sites i have used) do not insure drivers who have a declared criminal conviction.
Endsleigh
Kwikfit
Budget
AA
Swinton
RAC
Churchill
Privilege
Post Office
AXA
Skipton
M and S.
So far the cheapest quote i have been able to get is £1009 which is over £400 more than last year and that was with no accidents, parking tickets or traffic convictions since i went to them for Insurance 2 years ago.
That £400 works out at an at a cost of about £25 for each punch I landed on the Bradford Organiser of the National Front and two of his acolytes !
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| Can't help thinking you're being a bit naive here. Your conviction is spent. Don't declare it.
If you don't have one already, ask Swiftcover for proof of no claims and then walk away. Apply for insurance elsewhere, you've got your proof of no claims, and again, don't declare your conviction - which is spent, there won't be record of it if some insurance company goes hunting. How will they discover a spent conviction?
I walked away owing my last insurance company money after they tried to increase my policy and add admin charges to change to a lower powered, lower insurance group, cheaper car (my wife's!) when we went down to one car. Unfortunately for them I had my proof of no claims and am now happily insured elsewhere.
If, by some miracle, an incident occurs in the future and your new insurance firm says "you were declined insurance at Swiftcover", you can argue it was declined erroneously. Not that it will ever happen.
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| Unfortunatly you cannot deny things now.
Apparently when Swiftcover denied me insurance they enter that on the national insurance database that means there is now a record given to all other insurers that i have been denied insurance without any explanation.
Now that is big brother for you BUT it is all done on the basis of protection from fraud.
I wish i had never disclosed it but it seems that now i cannot get away from it.
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| I didn't realise people in Bradford insured their cars? You must have been one of the few. Mind you just noticed your location is Durham.
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| Have you actually rung any insurers or are you just going on what the comparison web sites tell you ?
I found that speaking to an actual alive and still warm sales person and explaining your situation politely and calmly (you can be calm sometimes can't you ?) often gets results - I picked up some unrequested extra discount on a two car policy with Direct Line last year and then this year when they tried to increase it spoke to someone at Aviva and got a superb deal, rang Direct Line back and gave them the opportunity to match it but they couldn't, nevertheless the salesperson did try which is something that a computer program wouldn't have done.
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| Insurers have a multitude of shared data on various anti-theft and anti-fraud registers, and in many cases, they already know the answer to the question. For example, "have you had any previous accidents". At a click of a mouse they get a list of every claim/accident related thing ever relating to your name, similar names, your address, your post code, similar addresses, your car reg no., and ditto details of anyone sharing your address, etc. etc.
Oddly, they can (seemingly) refrain from ever clicking that button for many years, and take your money, if you never have a claim. But the minute anything happens the information will miraculousy become known.
Of course they would say they never check in advance as they should be able to trust you, and if you misdeclared that's your fault. Sounds like utter bollox to me.
Cod'ead is confusing declaring something, as opposed to giving a false answer to a direct question. There is a difference between not volunteering information and lying. FWIW I wouldn't declare it either, but in this case the insurmountable problem is the previous refusal which as has been pointed out, all insurers already know about. Funny, that.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Have you actually rung any insurers or are you just going on what the comparison web sites tell you ?
I found that speaking to an actual alive and still warm sales person and explaining your situation politely and calmly (you can be calm sometimes can't you ?) often gets results - I picked up some unrequested extra discount on a two car policy with Direct Line last year and then this year when they tried to increase it spoke to someone at Aviva and got a superb deal, rang Direct Line back and gave them the opportunity to match it but they couldn't, nevertheless the salesperson did try which is something that a computer program wouldn't have done.'"
I have done both. two comparisons sites, 3 direct online applications to different companies and 4 calls to companies. Out of that only one would insure me.
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| Did you speak to a real live person at Swiftcover?
I've been with them for years and always found them easy to deal with.
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| Quote ="Big Graeme"Did you speak to a real live person at Swiftcover?
I've been with them for years and always found them easy to deal with.'"
Yes i did and they told me that they could not renew because they had new underwriters and had changed their policies.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"Unfortunatly you cannot deny things now.
Apparently when Swiftcover denied me insurance they enter that on the national insurance database that means there is now a record given to all other insurers that i have been denied insurance without any explanation.
Now that is big brother for you BUT it is all done on the basis of protection from fraud.
I wish i had never disclosed it but it seems that now i cannot get away from it.'"
You can't deny it, but you can dispute that it should be on the database at all.
According to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974:
[i(2) Subject to the provisions of any order made under subsection (4) below, where a question seeking information with respect to a person’s previous convictions, offences, conduct or circumstances is put to him or to any other person otherwise than in proceedings before a judicial authority—
(a) the question shall be treated as not relating to spent convictions or to any circumstances ancillary to spent convictions, and the answer thereto may be framed accordingly; and
(b) the person questioned shall not be subjected to any liability or otherwise prejudiced in law by reason of any failure to acknowledge or disclose a spent conviction or any circumstances ancillary to a spent conviction in his answer to the question.[/i
Have a look through the [url=http://www.unlock.org.uk/xoffenders.aspx?sid=258 Unlock[/url site, specifically the detailed guide. As they put it:
[iUnder the ROA, once the ‘rehabilitation period’ is completed the conviction is ‘spent’ and no longer needs to be disclosed when applying for insurance. For the purposes of insurance, “the broad effect of the Act ….is to relieve any proposer for insurance of the obligation to disclose a conviction or even the fact that he had committed the crime.”[/i
The ROA allows the individual to interpret the question of convictions in their own favour, but with the backing of government legislation.
I'd challenge Swiftcover and request that any record of your spent conviction and consequently the denial of cover be removed from the national database and if they refuse, threaten legal action and quote the ROA. I think they'd struggle in a court to back up their case.
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| Quote ="Cronus"...
I'd challenge Swiftcover and request that any record of your spent conviction and consequently the denial of cover be removed from the national database and if they refuse, threaten legal action and quote the ROA. I think they'd struggle in a court to back up their case.'"
That's not very practical. Swiftcover don't run the national databases for one thing. More to the point, any such challenge would either fall at the first hurdle or, for obvious reasons, be appealed all the way by the insurance industry. Unless you are a millionaire how would you fund the sort of costs involved and how much would you be prepared to risk taking them on?
Also politically, the motor insurers pretty much have the government in their pocket just now. Trying to achieve anything that might be seen as anti-insurer / pro-convicted motorist would not go down well. There would be zero appetite for anything that insurers could spin as being in any way helpful to fraud or dishonesty.
Finally, the obvious objection to such a court case would be that it is not in any way illegal for insurers to hold such data which is simply factual. What they cannot do, in the case of a spent conviction, is take it into consideration.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"That's not very practical. Swiftcover don't run the national databases for one thing. More to the point, any such challenge would either fall at the first hurdle or, for obvious reasons, be appealed all the way by the insurance industry. Unless you are a millionaire how would you fund the sort of costs involved and how much would you be prepared to risk taking them on?
Also politically, the motor insurers pretty much have the government in their pocket just now. Trying to achieve anything that might be seen as anti-insurer / pro-convicted motorist would not go down well. There would be zero appetite for anything that insurers could spin as being in any way helpful to fraud or dishonesty.
Finally, the obvious objection to such a court case would be that it is not in any way illegal for insurers to hold such data which is simply factual. What they cannot do, in the case of a spent conviction, is take it into consideration.'"
They don't run it, but they clearly have access to amend people's details. It would take them very little to remove a tick from a box or send an email to resolve something that is proving detrimental to DG's noble quest for fair insurance. He might even have a case for data protection.
He could always ask the [url=http://www.askmid.com/ Motor Insurance Database[/url directly. Impractical or not, it's worth a try if it saves him several hundred quid a year and problems in the future. If the MID say no, he needs to ensure the spent conviction isn't used against him as per the ROA legislation. That might be impossible as we all know they will almost certainly use that information, which is why it should be escalated and challenged if at all possible.
You're mad anyway, there's no talking to you.
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| Quote ="Cronus"They don't run it, but they clearly have access to amend people's details. It would take them very little to remove a tick from a box or send an email to resolve something that is proving detrimental to DG's noble quest for fair insurance. He might even have a case for data protection. '"
But even if they did have access, they aren't going to amend anything just by request, are they? Would completely defeat the object. Data protection is a non-starter IMHO as the data is (they would argue) held for a permissible reason.
Quote ="Cronus"He could always ask the [url=http://www.askmid.com/Motor Insurance Database[/url directly.'"
No, that is just a search engine to find out if a car was insured on a given date. It is nothing to do with the databases that record anti-fraud etc info.
Quote ="Cronus" Impractical or not, it's worth a try if it saves him several hundred quid a year and problems in the future. '"
Well, at the risk of losing my house, I wouldn't say it was worth a try, but yes, he might.
Quote ="Cronus" he needs to ensure the spent conviction isn't used against him as per the ROA legislation. That might be impossible as we all know they will almost certainly use that information, which is why it should be escalated and challenged if at all possible.'"
But I already outlined the cheap and cheerful way he could do that, if it happened that he had reason to believe information had been used contrary to ROA. No need to break the bank.
Quote ="Cronus"You're mad anyway, there's no talking to you.'"
One tries
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| Car insurance is a total rip off. A few weeks ago my daughter had an accident, for which the other party's insurance have admitted full and complete liability.
My daughter's car has been declared a write off. So far so good.
Her car was 7 weeks old with 1,200 miles on the clock and has a list price of £8,500 and came with other add-ons like 5 year warranty, 3 years free servicing and roadside recovery etc
So I was expecting a "new for new" offer from the other party's insurers. They phoned yesterday to offer £5,100 ! Of course I told them to stick it where the sun don't shine and asked them if they could tell me where I could buy a 7 week old car with all of the additional benefits for that price as I'd buy 2 ! I also reminded them of their legal obligation to offer a value which would enable an equivalent age and condition vehicle to be purchased as a replacement. The chap went very quiet then blustered a bit before finally saying he'd need to refer the matter to an assessor. "No problem" I said "take as long as you like. You're already paying for a hire car costing you £300 a week plus storage costs of the written off car so it's entirely your own money you're wasting. You'll continue to incur those costs until you make me a sensible offer and the claim can be closed so quite frankly I don't care if you take 6 months". He mumbled something about Glass's Guide prices to which I simply said that Glass's prices were trade 'buy in' prices and not 'sell out' prices.
Half an hour later they phoned back and offered a no quibble offer of full list price. So their offer went from £5100 to £8500 in 30 minutes. I wonder how many people they rip off like that who aren't able or prepared to stand up for themselves ?
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| Quote ="Derwent"
Half an hour later they phoned back and offered a no quibble offer of full list price. So their offer went from £5100 to £8500 in 30 minutes. I wonder how many people they rip off like that who aren't able or prepared to stand up for themselves ?'"
I'd imagine they do it every time in the hope that people won't have the balls to questions it. A lot of people unfortunately will just accept what they say and take the offer.
They did the same with my mate, but he works for Aviva so was wise to it. He then printed off I don't know how many different car adverts of similar make/model and age to show that the offer was ridiculous and he received the right amount.
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| Quote ="Derwent"...So their offer went from £5100 to £8500 in 30 minutes. I wonder how many people they rip off like that who aren't able or prepared to stand up for themselves ?'"
What most people neither know nor care is that this government, which is right in the pockets of the motor insurers, is on the brink of effectively removing the ability of most innocent victims of accidents to claim, unless they pay. The insurers of course are rubbing their hands, and they repeatedly insist that you can TRUST THEM to settle up fair and square with every person, every time, why involve independent legal advice, you don't need it.
They say this with a straight face. It is a pity that basically nobody in the country gives a sh?t about the proposed decimation of the present arrangements, but what baffles me is how [ianybody[/i would think that the paying party (the insurer you're claimin against) can be trusted to offer you the best deal immediately, when (a) "don't accept the first offer" has become part of the language and lore for a reason and (b) they have a legal duty to their shareholders to pay out as little as possible.
There was an interesting program on C4 Dispatches, which just opened a tiny window on some of the scams insurers use on an endemic basis. Think it's repeated this Friday.
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| Yes, plus the fact that most companies ask you for a car value when you request a quote. They use that value in their premium calculations but then disregard it when dealing with claims. Effectively they are charging people to insure for a value that they do not acknowledge which is another nice little scam for them.
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| Except if you'd valued your car at £1,500, but later it was written off and their engineer valued it for them at £2,000, what do you think they'd pay you?
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
Cod'ead is confusing declaring something, as opposed to giving a false answer to a direct question. There is a difference between not volunteering information and lying. FWIW I wouldn't declare it either, but in this case the insurmountable problem is the previous refusal which as has been pointed out, all insurers already know about. Funny, that.'"
Eh?
cod'ead isn't nearly as confused as you appear to be. This is my first post on this thread
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| Quote ="cod'ead"Eh?
cod'ead isn't nearly as confused as you appear to be. This is my first post on this thread'"
But I know what you would have said, and anyway, I have proof I'm mad
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