[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20715253[/url



I am curious to know how he thinks this can work. In Bradford, there are very sharply defined areas where Muslim populations live. Increasingly, the women wear all-black, including the veil, which cuts them off entirely from the lives of pretty much anyone except their own family and other women in the same situation. As I understand it, there are even more strict households, where the women are not allowed out unchaperoned.

I would ask Mr Miliband how he would square the sort of "integration" he seems to think he can achieve, with the rules and beliefs of people who, as a matter of religion, are forever ad completely forbidden from doing any such thing. I'm no expert so I'd point him here:
and just to single out one or two stumbling blocks to integration:




("Makruh" = abominable, offensive










Now, while personally I just wish all religion was abolished, I respect the choices of others to live their lives their own way, and I quote the above in a completely neutral way, and don't comment about it. What I do say is, if this is the belief and rule system of whole communities, then very clearly, any meaningful integration is impossible. There are just too many stumbling blocks. It seems that everything is predicated upon the assumption that anything and everything either is sexual, incites sexual thoughts or behaviour or risks doing so, and this must be strenuously guarded against at every possible moment.

Would not adherents of such a code find his comments offensive, and say "Why should we act against our beliefs to so called "integrate" with those who do not share our beliefs?"

What price integration a la Miliband?

Sometimes, someone needs to remind Mr Ed that all he has to do is sit back, let the current lot continue botching the economy, education, NHS etc and not say anything that might be controversial.

It's almost like he's finding ways to get out of becoming Prime Minister.

Would you blame him?

Admittance that a government got things wrong (very badly) but now in oposition sees the light. Please spare us the meaningless enlightenment shoite.
It's another way of saying sorry you know, only with a positive spin.
They presided over a p/iss up in a brewery and stifled debate as racism.
Get that Mail away from yourself Stand-Offish!

But yes something needs doing by someone with a clue.

No price and I'd say that the stumbing blocks are actually worse than that, they are almost guaranteed to lead to conflicts rooted in mutual misunderstanding.

Just as an aside, and without meaning to be offensive at all ...how do people identify burkah-ed individuals one from another, if they are roughly the same size, because all you see are eyes and an apparently shapeless garment?
I'm guessing that the idea is that you don't ... because that could obviously only be for the purposes of lust.

Interesting comments above.

But it's hardly a 'new' situation to have, in effect, ghettoes in the UK.

There have been ones in areas such as Stamford Hill for donkey's years, but nobody has ever seen that as an issue. These are areas that use specific religious laws in family courts. Children are dressed differently – and educated differently. It's difficult to see how that is good for integration.

One evening in the 1990's, I was in The Northumberland Arms on Goodge Street, London (it used to be a Tetley's pub) and whilst being served at the bar, a young bloke perched on a bar stool picked-up on my accent and asked me (in a Yorkshire accent) where I was from.
He was from Leeds and so was I.
Whilst I was waiting for La Senora to turn up, he and I fell into conversation, comfortable in each other's company and sharing humour and chat ... he explaining to his (Londoner) colleagues about this conversation (with an apparent stranger) that we were both Yorkshire lads and, following that, some friendly North v South banter ensued.

His skin colour and facial characteristics would have suggested India or Pakistan and, whilst I'd obviously noticed, it was only later that it occurred to me that it hadn't cropped-up, we were both Yorkshire lads and that made him the same as me, which was not something I would have said about the rest of the Londoner clientele.

Funny how it works isn't it? Someone integrates and what happens? We become allies in inter-regional banter, which is itself another form of non-integration.

Yes but was the female whom you were waiting upon also from t'north of t'Watford Gap?

There's nothing that says non-integration/ghettoisation better than an exclusive gated community.


Or Harrogate.

Whilst hosting a work Xmas party at the Hard Rock by Green Park a couple of years ago I got chatting to an extremely drunk girl from "Sarf Landan". Found myself in quite an awkward situation when she starting going on that "it was facking brilliant that I was a white English lad, cos they're all facking forriners where she comes from and she was fackin' sick of 'em."

Her bosses and colleagues, all of Pakistani origin, were stood next to us casting wary glances my way.

Which is an entirely valid point.

Well, I wouldn't know about Harrogate, but the other bit.

I beg your pardon!
If us rich folk want to keep riff-raff out of our modern-day-castle-estates on a monetary basis for our own well-being and security, that's our business.
Johhny Forriner is more than welcome in here at a price.
On a limited first-come first-served basis of course.
Hope that clears that one up!

Bleedin' posh people!

Horrible middle-class ghetto that somehow ended up in North Yorkshire despite clearly aspiring to be part of Surrey.

And everywhere is uphill.

I thought you Tykes have had plenty of middle-class types.

We're a broad church. The North is always disappointingly blue come election time.

If a blanket were big enough and you could throw it over the area from Harrogate to Durham keeping 20 miles inland from the coast it would cover some of the wealthiest families and land values in the country, so I was once told, especially when you reach Richmondshire.

To give an idea I was once asked if I'd like to paint a portrait of a pig, a prize boar that resided on a farm near Barnard Castle, the owner had just paid £30,000 for it at auction.

I don't remember why I declined the opportunity to paint a pigs face but I did.

I'm guessing it's because you're scared of the wife.
That, or you don't do self-portraits.

This any good?

The world famous Rubik's rug, unless I am mistaken.
He was a nobody until he bought it.

Are you referring to the Jewish community there? If you are, then, yes, at some point people would have had a problem with them. They were disliked, mistrusted, misunderstood. etc. etc. It's just not mainstream news.

One of the most beautiful cities in the world was the world's first ghetto. In face tht word Ghetto came from dialetto veneto, ghêto, where Shakespeare's Shylock lived.

Yes. I'm aware of the origin of the word. And it's irrelevant here, although the fact of the first named ghetto having been in Venice doesn't somehow make it a pretty sort of idea.

The issue is apparently integration – or lack thereof. If there are issues with the integration (or otherwise) of certain groups, then there are groups that have been here for many years who have not integrated.

Is it 'integration' to live in very insular communities, using laws and courts that are different to the laws of the land for certain types of dispute? Or for children to be made to dress in a way that marks them out as different from the majority of the population of that country? Or for the same children to be educated in a way that is dominated by the learning of their religion (50% of lesson time in a Jewish girls' school in Hackney is spent on the Torah etc).

How does this help integration?

If people are serious about integration, then they should start by realising that it isn't only the Muzzies – because we all know that that is what this is really about – who live in ghettos and do not integrate.

I think some do thanks.

The pleasure is entirely mine.

I had you down as one of the lumpen one who didn't.

It doesn't.

Isn't this why people are starting to say Multiculturalism doesn't work?

When it comes to the East End. Don't forget it was "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing"

As for someone talking about ONE NATION. What a funny choice of term considering its significance in politics over here in Oz.


P.S. Don't feel as though your intelligence was being challenged because I had a "QI' moment to share with people who may not have known about Venice.