If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.

Which is a very nice poem, but to be very brutally honest is also an emotional drum-rapping patriotic litany of nonsense written at a time when people were looking for explanations to the most horrific four years in human history and yet trying to avoid the obvious explanations that so-called "leaders" and "betters" had completely failed them - there is no glory in being dead and there is certainly no glory at having bits of you scattered far and wide across a muddy landscape just because one of your "betters" said it should be so.

[iDulce et decorum est pro patria mori.[/i

I'm sure some still believe it to be the case.

Very, very good post.

There's a fantastic speech in [iHenry IV[/i, (part two, I think), where Falstaff – in fantastically humorous style, muses on exactly this. It's quite brilliant.

There is one slight error in my post - the poem was written in 1914 and not after the war which is what I initially thought.

However that, to my mind, just makes the whole patriot thing even worse - far from being an attempt at explaining the horror of France and Belgium it was an encouragement to young men to lay down their lives in the belief that it was the only purpose they could have, pretty disgusting when you read it in that context.

It is however a beautiful poem without the context and I too will be pausing for two minutes on Friday and Sunday, you don't have to disrespect the dead while questioning the rest of the ethos of war.

This........

Although one does question how much we've learnt since the Great War.

Sweet FA.

Perhaps that there were only two [ie[/i in remembrance?

Indeed.

I think the act of remembrance is very important - regardless of what on feels about any specific conflicts. And I doubt that there are many who, regardless of their analysis of recent wars, would not regret and mourn the loss of life among men and women from these islands in wars down the years.

One thing I feel guilty of is rarely (if ever) buying a poppy. Whilst I do like to remember the fallen and have visited war cemetries and cenotaphs, I have always felt that the overt wearing of a poppy as well as paying respects to the fallen (which I like to do) also serves to glorify war publicly. It is for the latter reason that I have always been uncomfortable with it. Far better to remember quietly on your own, IMO (rather like being humble and quiet about giving to charity). I now await the inevitable criticism for being unpatriotic, etc.

I am not one who frequently agrees with you, Dally, but I come very close on this.

I don't begrudge the money in any way, shape or form – although I do get annoyed that our governments do not properly look after the men and women they send to their dirty work, and rely instead on our charity.

Personally, I've never felt that the poppy glorifies war – I've always seen it simply as a remembrance thing. But I do understand why some might.

I do wonder, sometimes, about how many people buy one without really thinking abut the meaning: does that matter?

It may not glorify war per se but it has instuitionalised / 'establishmentised' the act of remembrance in a way that arguably serves to encourage rather than deter further generations of would-be soldiers.

Not at all, stick a quid in the collecting tin and help the RBLA do the work that HM Government should be doing but won't - you don't have to take or wear a poppy.

Good point. In fact, I think I may have done that when I was younger.

tbh thats I'd agree with all the above, aside from feeling guilty about not buying a poppy. I'll drop a few quid in the collections, but can't remember the last time I took a poppy.

The major problem I found with poppies was the fact the bloody things would never stay on anything for more than 10 minutes. So this year I bought a couple of the poppy lapel pins, at least they stay where you want them

Been listening to the Jeremy Vine "The Songs My Son Loved" items this week, very touching, hard to listen to but also uplifting - there are five half hour interviews this week with mothers who's sons have died in Iraq or Afghanistan, speaking of their lads and playing music that they found on their iPods after they had died - they are appearing on the BBC R2 iPlayer page as they are broadcast, have a listen.

Friday will be a bit more special for me. It would've been my old man's 90th birthday, so at 11.00am on Friday 11 November 2011, I'll be pouring a dram and drinking to you pop.

Our old men share a birthday then, mine was born 11/11/23 so thats, erm 88 then ?

Mine will be Captain Morgan rum and Stones ginger wine, the old man's favourite tipple 'til he developed type 2 diabetes and they told him to drink whisky instead. After that it was 1 litre of Bells a day

A text I received last year.

They joined for many reasons,
To march, to sail, to fly,
They went where they were posted,
But no-one joins to die,

Their leader talk on TV,
What else could we have done,
But those leaders lost no daughters,
And none has lost a son,

So here's to all our soldiers,
Wherever they may be,
And here's to all their families,
I raise a glass to thee.

My old lady only did half a bottle of Bells per night, but she religiously washed it down with two tins of this,

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-told-not-to-wear-poppies-by-fifa-6257942.htmlIt seems FIFA don't go for poppies either.[/url

Seriously? I've little time for that corrupt organisation at the best of time, and this is plain senseless. If England wish to wear poppies and commemorate Armistice Day at Wembley, stick a big middle finger up to Blatter and his corrupt cronies and go ahead - stick them on their boots if they have to, FIFA have no control over that apparently.

The [iDaily Mail[/i spin on this story was hilarious – Fifa have said we can't wear the poppy in case it upsets the Germans. Now whatever people think about the decision, that's not why it has been made, and anyway, we're playing friendlies against Spain and Sweden – not Germany!

Frankly I'd be much more impressed by all the millionaire posturing if they donated their match fee to the RBL.