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| Quote ="bren2k"For sure - there is a plurality of views; what I have a problem with is people who form their views on false information - of which Sal is a perfect example; soundbites and ill-informed repetition of a party line, without any enquiry or independent thought.
And you didn't click them either you dunderhead - one was a link to an FT analysis of why CT revenues went up last year, and the others weren't newspaper articles. If you are such a diligent researcher, feel free to provide counter arguments - you know I'm the kind of annoying person who'll read them; which will probably be a waste of my time, since you don't actually want to have a rational discussion.'"
You do realise that link you provided we couldn't read unless we signed up and subscribed to the Financial Times site.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Sorry but, that would never happen, just as the Tories wouldn't back Labour is the boot was on the other foot.
Although hindsight is a wonderful thing, if it were possible, Brexit should have been looked at on a cross party basis, separate to ALL other policies.
Mrs May and her party, through utter greed and arrogance, may just have knackered our chances of getting a deal.
The 2 year time frame was always extremely tight and now, the Tories will be so busy trying to sort themselves out, that Brexit wont get the time and consideration that is requires.
Listening to the political commentators on the "Daily Politics", they (the Tories) are so fearful of losing a second election, that they will try and limp through.
Life really is stranger than fiction.'"
You're probably right but as you say, life is stranger than fiction and incompetent May still has to get her Queens Speech through, which is no mean feat considering what the DUP will demand to prop her up. Guess we will find out if she has a conscience of any kind or as I suspect, hungry to hold onto power at all costs.
I pay no attention to the commentators, blowhards or just parrot whatever conventional wisdom is at the time, with a few exceptions.
We'll see - it aint over till its over!
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| Quote ="PrinterThe"You do realise that link you provided we couldn't read unless we signed up and subscribed to the Financial Times site.'"
My bad - I'm a subscriber, and I won't copy/paste it here, because subscription is what allows for proper journalism.
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39869118Try this[/url; it's less sophisticated, but pretty balanced. In short, revenues went up in 2016 for a variety of reasons - and Labour's plans to raise revenue could work - or they couldn't. And Brexit throws the whole thing into disarray, because no one can predict what corporations will do if we lose access to the single market, and a ready supply of labour.
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| Interestingly, Corbyn is now ahead in the opinion polls, which is why the Tories are frightened to have a re-run.
The change in fortunes of the two parties is quite staggering.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"How would you have a borderless Ireland ?
It sounds easy when you say it but, the reality is that it just isn't possible.
Effectively it would provide tariff free access in both directions and whilst there is little doubt that this may suit Ireland (North and South), it would no doubt become a gateway for a whole host of "under the counter trade".
There always used to be a heap of trade in the border towns and many of these were done within the "grey" market, is that really how you think it will work ?
On a side note, it seems that the Tories are too nervous about re running the GE and they seem to prefer limping along until they are finally put out of their governmental misery.
Are you still a big fan of Mrs May ?'"
You have a united Ireland - that is coming and that is what the DUP is fighting against but it is just a matter of time. Sheer weight of numbers tells you in <10 years this will be a united country.
I never was - her staying is doing the Tories no good what so ever. She had her chance she blew it a host of MPs lost their jobs because of her stupidity and not once has she said how sorry she is - that is the calibre of the individual. For me the best person to run this country is Andy Burnham - and I would never vote for him but I am not blinded to his qualities.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"You have a united Ireland - that is coming and that is what the DUP is fighting against but it is just a matter of time. Sheer weight of numbers tells you in <10 years this will be a united country.
I never was - her staying is doing the Tories no good what so ever. She had her chance she blew it a host of MPs lost their jobs because of her stupidity and not once has she said how sorry she is - that is the calibre of the individual. For me the best person to run this country is Andy Burnham - and I would never vote for him but I am not blinded to his qualities.'"
A united Ireland, although a sensible idea if you take politics and religion out of the equation, is less likely to happen with The Tories and DUP in bed together and it would probably mean a return to bad old days of sectarian shootings and bombings that the good Friday agreement almost put an end to.
I think you are right about May though and she has completely stuffed her own chances and those of the Tory party, through her vanity and greed.
The fall out within the Tory party and how long it takes for them to make some hard choices within their party are going to be mighty interesting.
Of course, despite May running off to see the Queen and telling us that they were able to form a government (with the DUP), they have first of all to get past the Queens Speech, which, at the moment, is not a certainty.
It's almost a coalition of chaos.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"A united Ireland, although a sensible idea if you take politics and religion out of the equation, is less likely to happen with The Tories and DUP in bed together and it would probably mean a return to bad old days of sectarian shootings and bombings that the good Friday agreement almost put an end to.
I think you are right about May though and she has completely stuffed her own chances and those of the Tory party, through her vanity and greed.
The fall out within the Tory party and how long it takes for them to make some hard choices within their party are going to be mighty interesting.
Of course, despite May running off to see the Queen and telling us that they were able to form a government (with the DUP), they have first of all to get past the Queens Speech, which, at the moment, is not a certainty.
It's almost a coalition of chaos.'"
At this moment in time what with brexit, politicians need to do whats best for the country and put on a united front. Instead, you have the Tories who are clinging onto power without a care for the country.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"a host of MPs lost their jobs because of her stupidity and not once has she said how sorry she is'"
Neither did she say sorry to the disabled people who were persecuted under her watch, the nurses who had to use foodbanks, or the teachers who had to beg parents to make good the shortfall in school funding so they could buy books and equipment; she has form in this regard.
That said - she has now said the Tory party will help those MP's who are in financial difficulty due to losing their seats through her incompetence; it seems there is a magic money tree after all, if you're a Tory MP...
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| Quote ="bren2k"Neither did she say sorry to the disabled people who were persecuted under her watch, the nurses who had to use foodbanks, or the teachers who had to beg parents to make good the shortfall in school funding so they could buy books and equipment; she has form in this regard.
That said - she has now said the Tory party will help those MP's who are in financial difficulty due to losing their seats through her incompetence; it seems there is a magic money tree after all, if you're a Tory MP...'"
I haven't seen her comments about helping those Tory MP's who have lost their seats and if true, I find that to be quite vulgar, especially after the deliberate and systematic destruction of manufacturing in the North of England.
MP's of everyone, know that their position is perilous and aside from the fact that many of them have paid work outside of Parliament, it's just not on.
I'll add this to my "against" column when we have the next election.
Will they be sending any money north of the border, to help the SNP candidates who lost their seats or are they just looking after themselves, again.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"I haven't seen her comments about helping those Tory MP's who have lost their seats'"
[url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/12/may-tells-tory-mps-1922-committee-i-got-us-into-this-mess-and-im-going-to-get-us-out-of-itIt's in here.[/url
I guess the 37 grand redundo and transitional expense claim isn't enough - maybe they should be subject to an assessment of their fitness to work before they're offered any help; and make sure they don't have a spare bedroom.
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| Quote ="TrinityIHC"Corbyn supported none of their killing and maiming, he just tried to get someone to publicly acknowledge the legitimacy of a desire for united ireland. JC has been fiercely anti violence ever since he came on the scene.
If the N Ireland parties feel the need to maintain a paramilitary wing then thats a matter for themselves - just don't be inviting either of them to prop up a government of either colour while those paramilitaries are still active.'"
But in doing so he was suggesting that what the Catholics were doing was acceptable collateral damage in the struggle to get recognition. Did he come out and say this killing is unacceptable?
Then there is Corbyn admiration of Chavez in Venezuela, Gaddafi in Libya, Milosevic in Bosnia - the list is an extensive one!!
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"But in doing so he was suggesting that what the Catholics were doing was acceptable collateral damage in the struggle to get recognition. Did he come out and say this killing is unacceptable?
Then there is Corbyn admiration of Chavez in Venezuela, Gaddafi in Libya, Milosevic in Bosnia - the list is an extensive one!!'"
Dirt can be dug up on almost anyone. Hell the Tories supported the Apartheid government in South Africa around the same time you are calling Corbyn for being a terrorist sympathiser.
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| Quote ="bren2k"Neither did she say sorry to the disabled people who were persecuted under her watch, the nurses who had to use foodbanks, or the teachers who had to beg parents to make good the shortfall in school funding so they could buy books and equipment; she has form in this regard.
That said - she has now said the Tory party will help those MP's who are in financial difficulty due to losing their seats through her incompetence; it seems there is a magic money tree after all, if you're a Tory MP...'"
The last Labour government took us into an illegal war I didn't see any "were sorry" - that how in touch they are with the general public
The only reason a nurse would be using a food bank is because of other personal financial issues. If everyone earning less than a nurse was using foodbanks we wouldn't have to queue at the supermarkets - but you knew that really didn't you.
Most parents should have sufficient common sense to know what the educational needs of their child is and as such ensure their children are provided with the necessary material - we don't live in a nanny state where all responsibility is devolved to the centre.
Perhaps we should abandon foreign aid and put those billions into education?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"The last Labour government took us into an illegal war I didn't see any "were sorry" - that how in touch they are with the general public
The only reason a nurse would be using a food bank is because of other personal financial issues. If everyone earning less than a nurse was using foodbanks we wouldn't have to queue at the supermarkets - but you knew that really didn't you.
Most parents should have sufficient common sense to know what the educational needs of their child is and as such ensure their children are provided with the necessary material - we don't live in a nanny state where all responsibility is devolved to the centre.
Perhaps we should abandon foreign aid and put those billions into education?'"
Wow, you still aren't giving up are you ?
Labour (well, Blair) took us into Iraq, to back the Bush administration and I think just about everyone (apart from Bush and Blair) would acknowledge that it was a huge mistake, "sold" on a lie - WMD still not found
Although there are areas of Foreign Aid that are mis-used, however, as the 5th largest economy in the world, do you really think that we should abandon any help for countries or people in crisis ?
And as for payouts for MP, give them 3 months notice (severance pay) and get them back out into the real world.
They have failed in their "job" or, they would have been re-elected and at least, unlike yourself, they may have some empathy for those for whom they have caused hardship.
At least they went into politics knowing that elections occur within a 5 year cycle, not like regular members of the national work force.
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| Quote ="LifeLongHKRFan"Dirt can be dug up on almost anyone. Hell the Tories supported the Apartheid government in South Africa around the same time you are calling Corbyn for being a terrorist sympathiser.'" But Mandela was considered a terrorist in the old days. So, nothing changes does it - Labour terrorist sympathising and Tories on the side of law and order.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Wow, you still aren't giving up are you ?
Labour (well, Blair) took us into Iraq, to back the Bush administration and I think just about everyone (apart from Bush and Blair) would acknowledge that it was a huge mistake, "sold" on a lie - WMD still not found
Although there are areas of Foreign Aid that are mis-used, however, as the 5th largest economy in the world, do you really think that we should abandon any help for countries or people in crisis ?
And as for payouts for MP, give them 3 months notice (severance pay) and get them back out into the real world.
They have failed in their "job" or, they would have been re-elected and at least, unlike yourself, they may have some empathy for those for whom they have caused hardship.
At least they went into politics knowing that elections occur within a 5 year cycle, not like regular members of the national work force.'"
What do expect your lob-sided points to go unchallenged?
I don't see any of the Blair aides including the likes of Campbell accepting it was a mistake - even in this month's GQ they are defending their decision.
The point is where is that money best used? I am not saying we should not support people in crisis but where do we consider the best use of the money.
Greg Mullholland was a great MP he didn't lose his seat because he wasn't doing a good job - but then you knew that didn't you - but that is typical of the froth you post.
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| Quote ="Dally"But Mandela was considered a terrorist in the old days. So, nothing changes does it - Labour terrorist sympathising and Tories on the side of law and order.'"
He was in the early days of the ANC
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"What do expect your lob-sided points to go unchallenged?
I don't see any of the Blair aides including the likes of Campbell accepting it was a mistake - even in this month's GQ they are defending their decision.
The point is where is that money best used? I am not saying we should not support people in crisis but where do we consider the best use of the money.
Greg Mullholland was a great MP he didn't lose his seat because he wasn't doing a good job - but then you knew that didn't you - but that is typical of the froth you post.'"
I agree but, he doesnt need any "redundancy" payment either
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| Quote ="Dally"But Mandela was considered a terrorist in the old days. So, nothing changes does it - Labour terrorist sympathising and Tories on the side of law and order.'"
If the Jews had had a bombing campaign during the holocaust that the tories condemned, would you take the same line? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Corbyn has supported the cause for united ireland as he is against all forms of Imperialism and considers Northern Ireland to be an English Conquest (fair point of view even if you disagree)
He has condemned the bombings and use of violence throughout.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"The only reason a nurse would be using a food bank is because of other personal financial issues. If everyone earning less than a nurse was using foodbanks we wouldn't have to queue at the supermarkets - but you knew that really didn't you.
Most parents should have sufficient common sense to know what the educational needs of their child is and as such ensure their children are provided with the necessary material - we don't live in a nanny state where all responsibility is devolved to the centre.'"
Yep - you're still an idiot.
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| Spoke to a pal of mine today, true blue Tory . Not short of money.I said you will be distraught at the Tory performance. He just laughed, said he voted labour for the first time ever.
Said if jezza had won, he would be richer by about twenty to thirty grand a year. This cos he has three kids at university. So much for all this talk about brexit. If you tell people they will be receiving free stuff usually they will vote for you.
Water under the bridge now, but Mrs mays promise was to remove fuel allowance and scrap the triple lock. Not a surprise she did not receive a working Tory majority.
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| Quote ="bren2k"Yep - you're still an idiot.'"
You might need the state make the choices for you - I for one are grown up enough to be able to do it for my self
No wonder you wanted Jeremy to win
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"You might need the state make the choices for you - I for one are grown up enough to be able to do it for my self
No wonder you wanted Jeremy to win
'"
If he'd been extolling a whippet and flat cap tax he'd not have bren and wren's support!
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"You might need the state make the choices for you - I for one are grown up enough to be able to do it for my self
No wonder you wanted Jeremy to win
'"
As I've explained before - I'm in a fortunate position, so some of Labour's policies would have disadvantaged me personally; I was prepared for that, to see an end to some of the cruel and divisive Tory dogma that has caused hardship to so many people.
As it happens, Mrs May is now talking about an end to austerity, so there appears to be an admission that the ideological policy championed by Osborne (who is now one of her most vociferous critics) was not necessary after all; perhaps there is a magic money tree, if it helps to keep the Maybot in position?
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| Quote ="bren2k"As I've explained before - I'm in a fortunate position, so some of Labour's policies would have disadvantaged me personally; I was prepared for that, to see an end to some of the [icruel and divisive Tory dogma[/i that has caused hardship to so many people.
As it happens, Mrs May is now talking about an end to austerity, so there appears to be an admission that the ideological policy championed by Osborne (who is now one of her most vociferous critics) was not necessary after all; perhaps there is a magic money tree, if it helps to keep the Maybot in position?'"
such as?
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