You can't creatively crop that which is not there. Men, young men, cross borders, get settled and then import their families, left wing propoganda will never change the facts.

On abuse - there are 15m missed appointments with GP practises if we accept each cost £30 that is £450m is a nurse costs £30k that the equivalent of 15,000 nurses - that would be quite useful now. 8m hospital out patient appointments were also missed - that's another 1bn. Anyone who thinks an organisation the size of the NHS isn't wasteful is delusional - even it were 95% efficient that would be a saving of £6bn and we all know its nowhere near 95%. That is before we discussed clinical negligence claims which currently sits at £1.5bn, the failed IT project to integrate patient records cost a further £10bn - do want further information?

For routine surgery e.g. cataracts, hernias etc surely private insurance would be a better and cheaper option. The workforce has already been asked to pay in extra into a flawed pension scheme how much more do you want to take?

Interesting day - yet another Labour flight of fantasy. You know when John McDonald is telling lies - he opens his mouth. When asked if the nationalising program he announced a couple of months ago was it he said say yes - now this, he didn't even have the guts to speak with BT first. Then Justine on R4 this morning asked him it this was finally it he said yes within two minutes he said they would also nationalise the broadband operations of Sky, Talk Talk etc. You cannot believe a word he says.

As for the policy - complete and utter madness and not deliverable - the 20bn is understated by 5 and there is likely 600 businesses that would be go to the wall. Labour wants that to happen being so anti-business. Happy days for the Tories - Labour's credibility takes yet another pounding

Take your pick:
[url=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB814GB814&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNQ_YIzVC3Tn7BTpoiB14U38R9DMBA%3A1573824852587&sa=1&ei=VKnOXeq2I7iHjLsPoe2_sAI&q=refugees+slovenia+2015&oq=refugees+slovenia+2015&gs_l=img.3...256873.264453..264766...2.0..0.213.1528.24j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.....10..35i39j0j0i30j0i67j35i362i39j0i8i30j0i24.rVLremuVBjw&ved=0ahUKEwjqsJu6quzlAhW4A2MBHaH2DyYQ4dUDCAc&uact=5Slovenia[/url
[url=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB814GB814&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSNLgVepPRCU3R_12Nq_bRm7havEg%3A1573825199518&sa=1&ei=r6rOXZaqH4i5gwfe5KnADw&q=refugees+hungary+2015&oq=refugees+hungary+2015&gs_l=img.3...703.703..1227...0.0..0.50.50.1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.WIWOQhkUeT4&ved=0ahUKEwjWvdLfq-zlAhWI3OAKHV5yCvgQ4dUDCAc&uact=5Hungary[/url
[url=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB814GB814&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSGItDSqXpWHyqEua9rrr7MHozHmA%3A1573825347633&sa=1&ei=Q6vOXZu0JoqjUMn1ksgC&q=refugees+austria+2015&oq=refugees+austria+2015&gs_l=img.3..0i8i30.51440.53592..54000...0.0..0.119.521.6j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i8i7i30.gS7eAJmC45k&ved=0ahUKEwjb4aKmrOzlAhWKERQKHcm6BCkQ4dUDCAc&uact=5Austria[/url
[url=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB814GB814&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNTc_3iR7WqGxyRv2bIK6LfqGXIp9Q%3A1573825402702&sa=1&ei=eqvOXeC-KteHhbIP__io2AM&q=refugees+croatia+2015&oq=refugees+croatia+2015&gs_l=img.3...28187.32839..33050...5.0..0.116.728.12j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.tbo965SBotE&ved=0ahUKEwjg48PArOzlAhXXQ0EAHX88CjsQ4dUDCAc&uact=5Croatia[/url
[url=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB814GB814&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNTwRLnkcQkNc23ihrEcrKDIerj2Pw%3A1573825527654&sa=1&ei=96vOXaXGJ8fvgAaXmLC4BQ&q=refugees+macedonia+2015&oq=refugees+macedonia+2015&gs_l=img.3...57387.60874..61015...3.0..0.177.678.10j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.8qYYVJIkT7M&ved=0ahUKEwjlnY78rOzlAhXHN8AKHRcMDFcQ4dUDCAc&uact=5Macedonia[/url

I'm not blind to the fact many of these are genuine refugees and yes the EU should help resettle their share of those in dire need. But these was no managed refugee resettlement programme; this was Merkel inviting an influx of over a million into Europe. All genuine refugees? Far from it.

This is based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever - unless you care to furnish us with examples of how inserting a profit margin and the hefty additional administrative burden of insurance coverage ever produces cheaper outputs. (And while we're here let's not pretend the private sector is a bastion of efficiency).

In any event, the country is totally wed to the NHS form of socialism and very far right views like yours are not in any way popular, or likely to be enacted - even by the Tory party in its current extreme form. They would like it to be funded properly though.

WRONG.
[urlhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit[/url
That Poster says "WE MUST BREAK FREE OF THE EU AND TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS"
It was a lie.
Here's another time the lie was used.....


I get it. You want out and fair enough, but do not, for one second think that the referendum result wasn't influenced by this blatant lie. Same with the Bus.......there's a great number of latent racists who will deny they are racist, but the reality is, if they could blame johnny foreigner for their woes then they will. The Queues experienced by the 60+ year olds who voted leave, when visiting their doctors are the result of tory austerity. The 0% return they get on their savings isn't caused by anything else other than the tories bailing out their mates in the banks....but you carry on with your incorrect stance that both sides lied and therefore it's OK.
We may never know what would happen with a second vote, but one indicator is Farrages Hilarious Facebook poll where he tried to prove that Leave would win again.....it was 91% remain by the time he took it down!

It is not incorrect to suggest both sides lied - you know as well as everyone both sides lied - you need to take your blinkers off.

It was Labour who bailed out the bankers not the Tories - the result was a country in heavy debt when the Tories got into power and something had to be done. Perhaps you thought it should be business as usual?

So I see you quickly ignore the abuse and inefficiency points - your argument destroyed



So a cataract surgery is pretty cheap <£1,000 plenty of people either insure or just pay because the NHS will not put you on a list for surgery until you cannot see. So you can't drive, your propensity for falling over increases and your quality of life decreases significantly. Would you pay over the odds in those circumstances - of course you would. Nobody said the private sector is more efficient - only you suggested they weren't. This is about quality of life - you have tooth ache, you don't care what it costs to sort it out. This is where private health care really works and the NHS doesn't

We come back to the point of what are you expecting from the NHS. How much do you spend - if the NHS has 100k of vacancies it must have a huge surplus of monies or it doesn't have the funds to employ them? The ideal that all these jobs are taken up by Locoms or agency workers doesn't ring true - because if that were the case then the performance is not a staffing issue.

Despite what you suggest, as far as not telling the truth, Boris remains way, way, way in front in this respect.
Following on from the Brexit referendum, he and his "team" has plumbed new depths in political campaigning.

If seems like anything goes, without fear of reprimand or consequence.

As your Tory friends insist, nobody should be judged until we see the manifestos

That's a lovely rant, but bears zero relevance to the post I made, which focused on the background of the picture YOU posted - i.e. the mass influx of well over a million immigrants and refugees through the Balkans, prompted by weak EU leadership and Angela Merkel. The poster specifically targets the EU, as did the speech Farage gave at the time. It's a genuine picture of a real crisis - but in true blinkered left-wing style, you ignore the inconvenient truth and go on the attack.

Got to be said though, if you think immigration (EU and non-EU) isn't putting a degree of strain on public services, housing, etc, you're a blithering idiot. You simply cannot bring in a million people net every 3-4 years without some impact. And that's without considering the societal and cultural frictions. I bet you think that doesn't exist either.

BTW, as Sal says, Labour bailed out the banks.

Dont forget Golum Brown sold our gold at a record low, I wish I was thick enough to believe in Labour, the idealism is laudable, but it is not practical. There will always be those that have, and those whom that have not, maybe it's time Chardonnay from the Estate crosed her legs and got a job, but no, the tax payer bails her out.

Labour screwed our country, do I trust Boris, no, do I trust Cringebin more, hell no. It's like pulling a card on 16 against a 7, you want a 5, the dealer will get 4 and a picture.

What the idiot left fail to realise is that only succesful people pay their way, you dont pay tax on benefits.

Not compared to McDonald he doesn't - and their tactics are no different to Labour - workers rights, environmental protection, NHS spiralling US drug costs, no further nationalisation etc.

All labour are doing are rolling out a host of completely unachievable policies its lack credibility - 4 day week, turn up for work when you feel like it, no controls on immigration, £15/hr at McDonalds etc Google/Apple & Facebook are going to fund everything Labour wants to do - really, do Labour think these corporations are as stupid as they are and they will simply lie down and go come on John tickle my tummy - it isn't credible.

Labour criticised the Tories for the time it will take to get their environmental policy to fruition yet launch two policies - equal pay for ladies and broadband both of which will take as long to implement as the Tory environmental policy

Labour haven't yet started bribing opposition candidates, something which is illegal and yet again, shows how far the Tories, with Boris at the help and Cummings in the backroom, will stoop.
We now know what "do or die translates to".
Not content with proroguing Parliament, they are offering to "pay" the opposition not to stand.

They have always said that politics is a murky business and it certainly is at the moment.

Much as I despise Ann Widdecombe's views, I do believe that she has been tapped up.
Her comment was that she "would swear on the bible", which for her makes it serious, for others in her former party, probably not.

Really? Could have sworn you said:


Sorry but your post was most certainly one that claimed that


If you're going to attempt to patronise someone, be careful that you dont end up looking like an idiot...

Riiiiiight. Take your medication.

I was discussing the reaction to an anti-EU poster using a genuine picture (confirmed by the photographer) of mass uncontrolled migration flooding through the Balkans, and of how the snowflake left - as usual - went on the attack with name calling and vitriol rather than focusing on the crisis itself; ideological denial.

You reply with a rant about a bus, old folks at the GP, and then make yourself look a little daft with your blatantly wrong accusations about the bank bailout. You make a lot of mistakes on here, don't you.

But I'll humour you. Are you saying the poster featured a doctored, untrue or incorrect picture? Or that it [iwasn't[/i directly aimed at the EU and their failure to manage the crisis?

Let me guess, from the link your posted you're going to say we could have controlled immigration all along? That would have been difficult considering mass immigration was [url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-storyLabour government policy[/url from late 2000, and anyone who questioned this policy was shouted down as racist. This is also why the UK was one of only 3 EU countries (with Ireland & Sweden) that decided not to impose labour access restrictions on A8 citizens in 2004. Guess where those citizens went?

Labour and their civil servants were desperate to drive 'diversity', in the knowledge that immigrants are generally more likely to vote Labour. Remember Gordon Brown's 'bigoted woman' comment? That was almost a decade later, still disregarding and attacking the legitimate concerns of the electorate. Even now, any attempt to stiffen immigration rules results in cries of racism by those who [iSTILL [/ipretend everything is rosy.

Don't believe me? Migration, 10 year comparison, aligned to Labour taking office:
1988-1997: 345,000 net (2.8m gross)
1998-2007: 2,070,000 net (5.2m gross)

Not really, you come out with some many meaningless tropes it's hard to respond to them all. But if missed appointments is your biggest argument against the NHS it's pretty obvious you're on weak ground. Spend vs results is the metric to use and our relatively meagre spend produces great value for money.


Ah silly me I'd forgotten your backstop response would be that people should just pay for it if they get struck down by illness. Your lack of empathy for or even it seems comprehension of the existence of anyone who can't afford £1,000 surgery is sadly unsurprising.

People love the NHS precisely because it irons out the risk you would seek to place back on the shoulders of the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

I absolutely agree with your last point - but if the service cant cope then you need to seek out alternatives - if those that can afford it take pressure off the NHS then surely that is a good thing and will help the poorest & most vulnerable access vital services quicker?

Yes they have its just more subtle - you follow Labour on twitter and they directly point out candidates that shouldn't stand in marginal seats. Activists such as Owen Jones are at it all the time. If you think its only the Tories that are at this you are delusional.

So what do you want? Starve it of funding so that it's so bad that only the poorest will be willing to wait long enough, assuming they don't die first?

Means test healthcare?

How about we fund it properly instead of going down such vicious routes?

Almost all of them? I know the Daily Mail likes to paint a picture of a nation of dole scrounging layabouts bleeding you rich folks dry with their non stop loitering in A&E but you're not supposed to take it seriously.

In reality medial professionals would rather people consult doctors if they are concerned, even if it turns out to be nothing. That identifies serious problems at an early stage. This isn't rocket science even if it doesn't match your dystopic view of your fellow citizens.

If you can afford to access private medical care then that is a much preferable way forward and it takes pressure off the health service - win win all round. I am not suggesting we move to an insurance based system as the US - but those that can afford it should be encouraged to invest in insurance.

I see the NHS wants to change the way the 4 hour target is measured to accurately reflect what A&E should be for - surely the identification of serious issues is what you GP is for not A&E?

If we maintained health spending at the same level maybe, but no doubt you Tories would want to slash it further claiming reduced demand. I'm fortunate I can get a GP appointment pretty easily but I know millions of other can't. Which is why...


... people go to A&E because they can't get a GP appointment.

It all comes back to the same thing: your government isn't interested in spending enough money on the NHS to make it a success which in turn gives extremists excuses to pretend that an alternative system would be better. It would be less fair and more expensive. Nobody wants that; just spend the money, increase taxes if need be, to achieve the results everyone wants.

To be clear, my last post was in direct response to you rant that "I had missed the point" when in reality, I had hit the nail on the head. You claimed that there was nothing wrong with the poster, I pointed out that in reality, there was no control issue. Your subsequent rat about "if we'd done that we'd have been called racist" is neither here nor there. The reality is Britain never lost control of its borders, but a picture of Migrants thousands of miles away with the TAKE BACK CONTROL dogma did its job.
You are a racist by the way. Not based on creed or colour I suspect, but more on blaming someone else for the woes you feel are inflicted on you. Once your imaginary fence goes up, you'll turn your attention inwards, to those unfortunate enough to rely on food banks, government benefits and other "hand outs".

FACT. Britain never lost control of it's borders. Admit that and it'll make anything else you have to spew afterwards more relevant, but I doubt you will.

Facts will always undermine your right wing rhetoric, so you'll type "Riiiiight" in a patronising way to make you feel better, but FACTS are your enemy, so you and your ilk will describe them as "fake news".

Here's another article that you probably cheerleaded too...

There it is...the tactic of the snowflake left...lose the argument and resort to name-calling. I'm just surprised it took you so long. You're the loudmouth in the pub who talks over everyone and thinks he's 'winning'. Probably no point carrying on, your unpleasant character is clear for all to see all over these forums. Plus you keep getting things wrong and it's all a bit embarrassing.

Racist? Yawn. Woes? I have very few. Blame? I control my own destiny. I prefer facts to emotion if it's all the same to you.

Now, where are wrencat and bren2k and a couple of others for some [size=60(reasonably)[/size challenging and intelligent opposition.

House.