The notion that any nation can retreat within its sovereignty whilst the rest of the world - like it or not - is being integrated into over-arching power blocs which are the precursor to the first vestiges of global governance is completely LUDICROUS.

What is being proposed as an "exit" from Europe is nothing like an [iactual[/i exit - the last nation to attempt such being Yugoslavia. And we all know what happened next.

Likewise, throughout this entire tedious debate almost no mention has been made of America's position. Which is odd because America is VERY interested in what takes place in Europe - not least because it is perceived both as a competitor and thus a threat.

Indeed, America's number one strategic goal for the past century (above oil even) has been to prevent - [uAT ALL COSTS[/u - an alliance between the EU (but most importantly Germany) and Russia. Nothing brings the US state-department out in cold sweats quicker than the thought of German industry marrying itself to the vast resources of Russia.

No one would blink an eye at the suggestion that the US routinely attempts to influence the politics of third world nations and spends billions of dollars doing so. Which begs the question - [iif the United States is prepared to go to such lengths making sure some tin-pot dictator wins power over rival nationalist groups in central Africa - what would it do to effect political change in the EU where ... you know ... things REALLY MATTER?[/i

The truth is Britain has been the tool of United States foreign policy since Churchill sent William Stephenson scuttling over to Washington carrying the "family jewels". For years we've served to keep Europe weak, divided and under the dominance of Washington. And we've performed that task heroically.

Please, please, please vote leave. The EU is a subdivision of the coming global government. If the UK votes to leave the EU it will seriously damage the globalist New World Order agenda.

This thread is going in the direction of 'Lunatics corner' at an alarming rate...

This is rich coming from someone whose entire contribution to this site is the equivalent of elevator muzak. Seriously, I can't remember a single post you've ever made which stimulated my imagination. You are a monument to mediocrity. Well done!

Well, I spent 2 very long days at the Northern Powerhouse Conference in Manchester on Thursday & Friday, alongside a distinguished selection of business 'leaders' and a few politicians. Not all from the North, it should be noted - in fact, the spread was hugely varied.

This discussion came up many times and people were surprisingly willing to offer their opinion. Almost without fail, the verdict I heard was 'out'. Many of the reasons have already been offered in this thread so I won't repeat them, but needless to say the feeling is the EU has become a restraint and a burden, and a costly one at that. There's very little the EU brings us economically we can't achieve alone.

I'll be voting out. The EU is a rapidly failing project. Yes, freer trade benefits us all, but this idealistic idiocy of 'ever closer union' and open borders is a potty and dangerous concept, especially when those who dreamed it up have us by the 'nads and are too arrogant to listen to opposition to their

I work with many Germans and have spent plenty of time in Germany in the last few years. Merkel's popularity has crashed and if you don't think the immigration situation is out of hand - try travelling by rail in Germany. You'll soon see first hand.

But haven't we now got out of "ever closer union" so it shouldn't be an issue?

The "out" group seem to be basing it all on an argument based around "well they'd still want our stuff so it won't be a problem" which to me seems to be incredibly simplistic. Chris Grayling was trumpeting that line over and over again this morning on R4. I fear it won't be half as simple as he thinks. His record as Justice Secretary shows he's not exactly got a good track record for attention to detail.

One of the problems the “In” camp have is, every time they bring up a scenario of post Brexit they are accused of scaremongering, whereas the “Out” camp can only offer a utopian theory.

Bit like the Scottish independence debate.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was posting on RLFans just for your enjoyment. I don't need to stimulate your already overactive imagination along with the hefty dose of arrogance that dribbles off any replies that shart out of your general direction. You seem to be solely stimulated by fantastical whims with a pseudo-intellectual insecurity parading as confidence. I'm quite happy that you find me a monument to mediocrity given that the alternative is having anything in common with someone so horrifically lob-sided and self-important.

Good work!

Fully agree. All the 'IN' campaign as we know is built around the fear of the leap into the unknown blah blah but there is nothing else that points to any improvements down the line on all the main issues people are fed up with, infact they will likely get worse if we vote to stay in we will become even bigger lap dogs to Merkel and her cronies. whereas i see many positives for coming out even if we have to take some short term hits we will come out better for it in the future.That is my belief anyway.

True. Whilst I haven't read a truly compelling argument as to why we should leave, I've not seen one for why we should stay either.

It's scary to think that the general population have been trusted to vote on such an issue. There's no precedent to cite, no real idea on what will happen if we go (either pros or cons), the true benefits of remaining in etc.

Like the Scottish Referendum, with there being so many unknowns in the mix, the utopian 'out' versus the scaremongering 'in', for the majority of voters it'll come down to their own ideology - to be part of something or to be 'independent'.

I disagree. Do you really think the general population would have been trusted with the vote if it was such a big deal?

I can't believe people actually think that they have a choice. Your vote is just an illusion. Wake up for goodness sake.

Well, we get to vote on who runs the country, which is a pretty big deal.

I get your point though, maybe it isn't a big deal and whichever way the vote goes life wont change for most of us.

But we don't know for certain, and that's my point. We've no idea on the ramifications, how it'll effect our daily lives, how much we'll be out of pocket or quids in etc, how big a deal it really is. I'd rather the people who were most informed, who had no vested interests either way, made the decision on our behalf based on what is truly best for the country. Basically, I'd like the politicians to do their jobs.

OK then if you say so, i won't bother myself

<fx: snooze>

I was wondering what was going on in there, I was next door at the Biomarker Congress for the same two (very long) days.

You realise you just proved his point, right?

But I wasn't in Dallas on the 22nd November 1963.

The French and Germans, or more precisely BMW, are now chipping in with the scaremongering. They've obviously got more to lose than us if it comes down to OUT.

Let's face it, Brexit is for gamblers and those with least to lose if everything goes titsup.

Even Obama is sticking his oar in now. It's all getting desperate.

Have the Out campaign come out with a viable argument as to why we should leave the EU yet? All I've read is the opinion of experts & economists that say we'd be better of remaining in the EU.

The Out campaign at the moment seems to be built on an ideology and a massive risk, rather than what's actually best for the country & the people in it.

I'm willing to listen to either argument, I've just not seen anything compelling from the Out campaign yet

That's because they haven't got anything compelling, unless it's this "Ohhh barbarians at the gate" thing.

Reading in the i this morning that Farage is saying Labour are only being anti-semetic to attract the Asian vote, as if they are cheating and it's something he wished he'd have thought of first.

Have to say I am struggling with this issue.

Being on the left I would normally go for the internationalist, co operative pre Europe view


BUT


It is clear thatEurope is just another capitalist club that we are part of.

The way they dealt with Greece and the negotiations of the tip agreement are good examples.

Socially there is an element that is positive re eu legislation working hours and green polices as well as the European court but the rise of the far right in many countries makes me wonder whether it will be as progressive in the future.

My other concern is that the benefits system in Europe is quite unique in that it relies only on being in need which is what I like about the welfare state. In Europe no other country has that which means that with free movement of labour the strains on the welfare state here are going to be huge.

There is a big part of me which thinks that by going it alone ( I don't buy all the scaremongering as capitalists don't like to affect trade) that being out of Europe means that the country will forge it's own identity which will shake the labour movement in the uk wake up.

Then the British will have to decide what sort of society they want Daves Britain or a progressive country based on equality and fairness.


This pretty much fits in with the views of tiny benn so I am in good company.