Perhaps you need to take some time and consider why you description of multi-cultural Wincanton cannot be substantiated by the legal census of the very same place.

Based on the available evidence you have just made that up to suit your argument - none of your cliquey mates -like FA- on here are ever going to bring you task on what is a made up post. That is what I am mean by a clique - even Stevie Wonder can see it exists on here

Each defendant would have the opportunity to address the court as to their guilt or innocence and level of culpability and any mitigating factors. The court has well-established sentencing guidelines but if no jail sentences are passed then any sentences will lose the (very badly) needed deterrent effect so yes, i would hope that the default position would be jail time.


If that were tru then the parents should again be investigated and if found to be neglecting their child to its detriment, they should lose the child.


You assume both parents would be jailed. Experience teaches us that that is unusual. But it is not a matter of whether they are "better off", the law needs to be brought to bear to stop FGM for as yet un-mutilated kids' benefit, and if you are looking for some sentencing utopia whereby stiff punishments for serious criminals somehow do not seriously impinge on family life, well, good luck with that. It isn't a consequence I or anyone would WANT, but is a consequence the parents should have thought of when deciding whether or no to let a butcher loose on their child. They are responsible.


I would hope that eventually the fact I did no such thing, but that their own parents did it all by themselves, would be realised. But whether they realised it or not should not be a factor in doing what is necessary to try to eradicate this barbaric practice. No apologist for mutilators can change that, nor can any amount of emotional blackmail. Just as if Rose and Fred West had young kids, I would "ruin their lives" by sending their parents to jail without parole, if you want to look at it that way. I would say it is a very twisted way to look at it, but those kids' opinion would not deter me one second from prosecuting, convicting and locking up the Wests.


And tolerate this butchery? Really? We shall just have to fundamentally disagree on that one, then.

I've done nothing but the same as what you or anyone is free to do and that is post whatever I want within the AUP. The nonsensical view that I have "frustrated" away most users is pretty mad, especially as the board has a "foe" function but it is a free country and if it was true that people chose not to post somewhere simply because they suspected the presence of another poster they disagreed with, even one they would never see, then I respect their choice.

Of course IF people have taken such a decision not to post, it could at least as likely be that they don't want to engage with the sort of right wing, fascist, racist, reactionary and homophobic stuff that certain posters regularly come up with. But you wouldn't have thought of that, would you?


As you apparently know every person who has ever posted, and know if, and why, they no longer do, how can anyone dispute your analytical findings? You have the statistics, and the signed statements.

It is not for me to answer such crackpot theories, anyway. Those who run the forums decide what goes and what doesn't, I'm very happy with that, if they tolerate me - or you - we remain free to post, if they don't, then we're out. I have nothing to do with running the boards. I would hope my posts tend towards the vibrant and interesting, but whether you're right or wrong. it wouldn't be my problem, would it.

Just checking the front page now,

Doesn't seem too shabby to me.

Apart from a certain element within the Pakistani community who are quite happy to use multiculturalism from their mono cultural backgrounds to get their carnal bliss hits.

Emigrated to get away from immigrants?

Both defendants will probably insist it wasn't their decision and they were against it. It was their partner/in laws/parents.

The only convictions will be against the religious zealots who insist they were doing right all along.



You consider FGM to be child abuse. Aren't you wanting the children to be taken away from their parents for that anyway?



FGM is completely different from one parent sexually abusing a child. You're claiming that it is an easy issue for the authorities to solve when it's blatantly obvious that it isn't.



The NHS estimates that 60,000 females in the UK have had this done to them. UNICEF estimate 125 million females worldwide have had this performed on them.

IMO we've done all we can in the UK. I support the UK in eradicating FGM worldwide, but I feel it would be lunacy to start criminalizing UK citizens for having different beliefs to us.



Their parents had the FGM performed. But it is YOU who is pushing them to be jailed for that when no one else wants to go there. Girls and women aren't coming forward to report their parents for this. They don't deem it worthy of further action, but you do.



This thread is only here because of the utterly awful child protection system in this country. You want more kids thrown into this system. Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.

So, you proposal for a better alternative would be? ...

Perhaps you'd be better served by actually reading the post I initially responded to, instead of making things up as you go along.

I was accused of living in a "leafy suburb": Wincanton, as a small, West Country market town, is hardly Surbiton or Virginia Water.

Mind you, I've still managed to live and work among diverse populations in Malaysia and Kenya without too many problems that I can recall

'Muslim isn't a race' - that's exactly what the EDL say when they defend themselves against accusations of being racist.

They were targeted because their abusers regarded them as western 'white trash' and the only article mentioning Asian girls being abused say's they had become 'too English' so it was their own fault!

IMO anybody trying to deny there was a racist element in these crimes are so PC they have disappeared up their own anuses.

But it isn't, in the same way that Jewish isn't a race, nor Anglican. They are religions, practised by peoples of many races

So anti-semitism isn't racist?

Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.


No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.

Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.


It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.


Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.


We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations. Secondly, it IS a crime, and a serious one at that, and performed against the least empowered in our society, and done in cold blood. Your most ridiculous statement is about "criminalising UK citizens for having different beliefs". They can believe whatever they like, including that it would be great if they could chop bits off their children. As long as they do not actually have bits chopped off their children.. That is the criminal act, not believing it should be done.


No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.

Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.

What would you guess then motivates [url=http://www.theguardian.com/end-fgmFahma Mohamed[/url, and the 200,000+ people that have signed her Petition to end FGM?

Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?

And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.


Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this. Certainly not [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/05/fgm-female-genital-mutilation-women-fight_n_1744455.html?utm_hp_ref=uk"Ardo"[/url, whose story you might learn something from.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.'" Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party. But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice. Quote No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.'" Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM? I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here? It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous. Quote Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. '" We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families? Quote However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. '" How do you propose doing that? Quote Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.'" So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that. Quote It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs. '" Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind [iseems[/i. Quote Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.'" Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does. Quote We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.'" Not actually true. www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... rged-court It seems they go to trial in January Quote No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know. '" So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this? Quote Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed. '" I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it. Quote Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man? '" What's your source for this? Quote And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me. '" I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous. Quote Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.'" Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM. But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say. But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.'" Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party. But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice. Quote No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.'" Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM? I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here? It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous. Quote Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. '" We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families? Quote However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. '" How do you propose doing that? Quote Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.'" So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that. Quote It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs. '" Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind [iseems[/i. Quote Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.'" Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does. Quote We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.'" Not actually true. www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... rged-court It seems they go to trial in January Quote No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know. '" So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this? Quote Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed. '" I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it. Quote Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man? '" What's your source for this? Quote And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me. '" I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous. Quote Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.'" Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM. But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say. But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.

I think they want to end FGM. I support them in that.

But what I doubt that there's many, if any, other crackpot loons who want parents jailed and families ripped apart over FGM.

I think you've answered my point very succinctly there, thank you - and unless any further evidence emerges over the following months you'll also probably find that charges of racist crimes do not appear in any court cases linked to this matter as indeed they never have done in similar cases.

In your straw man, the mother would clearly under UK law not be convicted, but don’t let that stop your ranting.


If done for purely religious reasons then, as a statement of fact not law, I would say yes, though for obvious (to most) reasons, it is a much less significant procedure medically and isn’t aimed at sexually crippling the child. You can’t sensibly compare it to the evils of FGM. It does create the risk of totally unnecessary infections and other problems but equally is a medical procedure that can be done on legitimate health grounds too, and basically the child can often get on with his life pretty much unaffected. It’s not a parallel, and the medical opinions on the outcome are[url=http://jme.bmj.com/content/30/3/259.fullequivocal[/url. There are many cases where children suffer unnecessarily or even die as a result, for example the case Goodluck Caubergs which led to the conviction for manslaughter by gross negligence of nurse Grace Adeleye who carried out the circumcision. The court heard that up to three children a month are admitted to the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital because of bleeding after home-based circumcisions. However, the POINT is, as the Law Commission found maybe 20 years ago, male circumcision for non-medical reasons is not unlawful in the UK even though it felt a law should be passed to make the position crystal clear, and as the practice is therefore not against the law, unlike FGM which is so plainly against the law, there is no sensible comparison to be drawn. As a statement of law, male circumcision is NOT child abuse as UK law presently stands and so I accept that position.


No, it shows that they know what is involved and that you clearly don’t.


It is child abuse but my concern is not with labels, just with preventing the abuse, and if too late for that, bringing those responsible to justice.


Of course we can, and are. Hopefully many lessons have been learned from the failures and inactions of the past, and increasing number of cases where the law has dealt with offenders, and there are dozens of initiatives which a second on Google would educate you about. However the fact that other types of child abuse go on seems to be a very weird argument against action to stop FGM.


Look, if a girl is at genuine risk of FGM then it follows as a civilized country and if there is no alternative, then we should and must remove her from harm’s way. If the risk goes away she can go back. I entirely reject any shortage of foster carers or care home places, if there were one, as any sort of justification for allowing girls to be mutilated.


There are many and sensible proposals and initiatives some of which I already linked to. Those who know about the subject seem to have very good ideas how to tackle it. All that is needed is the government to back and actively support them for a decent start to be made. If you can’t be bothered to read the links then a fair summary would be identifying children and communities at risk, educating them, and at the same time ensuring they also realize the criminality of these practices.


Leaving aside that very many of these are adult females of a range of ages, I don’t get your argument. Is it really that because there are lots of victims, we should just leave them to it?


Great. About time a start was made, and identifying and prosecuting the (alleged) butchers is an excellent place to begin.


I have heard this from several places. Here’s one: [urlhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/yvonne-ossei/female-genital-mutilation_1_b_1822156.html[/url


As if I claimed I “have the solution”! Your conclusion that the numbers are too high so we should just leave them to it is the laissez faire equivalent of wanting it to continue, though. Your “solution” (“Well, I’m against it of course but lots do it so what can we do”) I find just totally unacceptable and alarmingly defeatist.


They, like everyone else, should obey the law of the land.


No, that is just an utterly banal stating of the obvious. As for the rest - I challenge you to answer one single question, then:

Read this, from one of my links:

Just before the procedure starts, your task is to articulate to this 7 year old girl the “other side of the argument”, and the “other point of view”, as to why you feel there is a case to be made for the procedure to go ahead.

Go on. The floor is yours.

Here's what you wrote earlier:

[iIf a girl is found on medical examination to have suffered FGM, a prosecution shuld be brought. You do not get sexually mutilated by accident and no jury would believe that it happened without the knowledge of the parents. [/i

[iOne frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up.[/i

You have faith that the juries, and before them the police and CPS, have the ability and knowledge of these countries to be able to determine who performed this operations, when they did it and who organised them. I don't have faith that they can do that. And that's mainly why the CPS will always struggle with putting forward a prosecution, even if they were willing to prosecute the parents. Which I'm not sure they are and suspect they aren't.



And they have made the case very well in English to an English speaking audience. But is this case being made to African immigrants with limited, if any, knowledge of English?

One of the links you posted had a woman who talked with other women. They had had the procedure performed on them and suffered no ill effects and didn't understand the problem, they said that their mothers and grandmothers had also had it done. They didn't understand what the issue was.

You want to castigate them as evil child abusers because they have performed FGM on their children. But it is an English label and an English crime outlawing a practice that mainly occurs in Africa. I know that in Britain ignorance of the law is no defence, but anyone with any sense must accept that there are difficulties with educating immigrants to our country that their customs are illegal and outlawed here.



How do you determine that a girl is at risk of FGM? Unless you are proposing a ban of children returning back to their home country from England then you clearly can't.



That I don't have a problem with.

What I have a problem with is your suggesting of criminalising parents for this and taking children away from their families over this. Have you got a link of anyone else suggesting this?



No, my argument is that this is a massive difference between the cultures of the western world and the cultures of poor African and Middle East countries. IMO you're arguing that we need to go to war with these people, by throwing these child abusers in jail and taking their kids away. I'm arguing for diplomacy, for educating them and convincing them that they should abandon their practices.



See, I think this is really good education for huffpost readers, I'm sure it will play really well with readers of the Guardian as well.

But it is very much written from a British perspective for a British audience. I'm not sure there's any attempt whatsoever to even begin to address the situation from an African perspective.



I think your "solution" would be rejected by even members of the BNP as too extreme. They'd probably like your solution, but they wouldn't be brave enough to endorse it.



Which is fine if you know about the law and understand it. A little more difficult if you know three words of English and have no comprehension of what FGM is.



I've never once said that I support FGM or understand why it's performed, so I reject your ridiculous task just like I reject your ridiculous solution.

I would ask you to explain to a 7 year old girl why her loving parents are in jail for supposedly abusing her when she has no knowledge or any ill effects from a procedure that was performed when she was a baby.

FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.

While no ill effects may result initially once a woman starts to have sex or gets pregnant is when problems occur, particularly during child birth.

Quote ="dr_feelgood"FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.'" Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2

Quote ="dr_feelgood"FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.'" Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2

Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2'" I stand corrected. You accept my second point though?

Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2'" I stand corrected. You accept my second point though?

Of course. I'm not arguing in favour of FGM. From everything I've read I am against it and strongly doubt that there is any reason that the practitioners will come up with which will suit us in the west. And as Africa is a mainly poor continent with poor medical services any unnecessary medical procedure would be better off not done.

It's just his FGM = child abuse = prosecute parents and take away kids solution that I completely object to.

I hope you watched the Panorama programme on Monday night. Then you may have at least a clue as to just how abjectly wrong you are.

You are confusing different things. If a child was mutilated in the past before coming to this country then no crime has been committed in this country and no prosecution can be brought.

A whole different kettle of fish is the practice of taking young girls abroad for the purpose of FGM. Everything possible must be done to prevent this.

We have a decent enough judicial system, warts and all. If only its wheels could be set in motion on FGM crimes, I’m sure it would produce in the main just outcomes.


And so you cite that as making it all OK, or at least tolerable?


I’m the one supporting a serious and effective effort to educate, and to inform that in the country in which they now live, FGM is a serious crime.


There is a whole literature on just this subject. In many ways it is no more and no less difficult than identifying children at risk of any other form of sexual abuse, in any section of the community. It is a shiit and demanding job, but that should never prevent us from doing it. In another of your naïve posts you cited the Rotherham case – that is what you get when the authorities neglect their duties.


That is exactly such a thing as I propose, in a case where there are grounds to suspect that the purpose of an intended trip is for FGM.


I have never made this suggestion, though. I have suggested that people in the UK who commit serious crimes under UK law should be prosecuted under UK law. Parents of children are no exception. I do not advocate ignoring crime due to cultural or religious differences, which is what I understand you do.

If a parent is guilty of a crime then they should be dealt with by the criminal law. I am not “advocating” jailing them, I have faith in the criminal courts to, in the main, impose the correct sentences on convicted people, and if the COURT decides that jail is inevitable then so be it.

I am not “advocating” taking children from their families or putting them in care. I am saying that if a child is found to be at serious risk of FGM then social services need to do their job to protect the child, which may indeed involve removing them from the family. Or may not. I advocate the enquiries being diligently made, and if the evidence is there, then the required steps to be taken, not shirked from for fear of upsetting some section of a community or other or some religious or cultural sensibilities or whatever.


A similar argument to mine, except I would tell them that their practices are absolutely and unequivocally forbidden, whether they are “convinced” is not my concern. They need to know that desisting is not optional.


We’re not in Africa.


I’m glad you have clearly therefore got the point, even if you have a weird way of admitting it..


I am assuming that the swear filter changed your original adjective for the parents to “loving”?
If your absurd scenario ever happened, including the strange case of a bay FGM, with “no ill effects” (how can having had your clitoris cut off constitute “no ill effects”, even to your way of thinking?) then I would explain that they were in jail because UK justice had considered all relevant facts and evidence and rules that this was the most just outcome. The court decided they deserved it.

I really don’t know why you would propose a weird scenario where somehow the passage of time mitigates the evil of the act. What if a baby girl’s father has repeatedly raped and buggered her some years ago? She may be less likely to have ill effects as serious as those from FGM and she may be more likely to remember FGM than rape or buggery as a toddler. Once his offending eventually comes to light, should he escape prosecution when she has no knowledge or any ill effects from a procedure that was performed when she was a baby?
Obviously not, so why would it be any different if the crime was FGM rather than any other serious crime?

I'm in the middle of watching a film right now, but I'll watch it on iPlayer later.

What should be done to prevent this? By whom?



No, I'm not citing that as saying that it makes it all ok. I'm saying that immigrant women are being questioned in the street about a practice that has been performed on them, their mothers and grandmothers. If they also happened to have a young daughter who they performed this traditional ritual on in the last decade they have probably unwittingly committed a crime that you are insisting is worthy of sending them to jail and having all their children taken from them.

If a mother knows all about the laws and says "screw you, she's my daughter and I'll do what I want to her" then you have a case that she's guilty of child abuse. But if she hasn't been reading the Guardian articles you have and doesn't know that she's even committed a crime then treating her as a child abuser is barbaric treatment for both her and her family.



A campaign that mainly involves investigating them, convicting them and taking their children away from them.



Unless a family is known to social services or reported by a teacher or doctor then most kids will go through life without being "protected" from sexual abuse. You are pretty much wanting every African immigrant to be automatically flagged as a potential child abuser simply because they have a daughter.



Time will tell whether the Rotherham report was an accurate representation of facts or an attention seeking report to shake the system up.

It also has to be said that while social services have a duty to protect children under their care, they don't have unlimited powers or resources. And just because a white English girl in care had an older Asian boyfriend, it doesn't mean he was pimping her out all the time.



Like I said, you're too extreme for the BNP. They admire you and will probably want to share fund raising ideas, but they can't risk being linked too closely with you.

Who are you wanting to put in charge of banning orders for African families who say they want to take their daughters to visit their grandparents?



You've made this suggestion many times in this thread.



You have argued clearly that FGM is child abuse and that the child abusers should be jailed and have their children taken from them.



Are you doing this by an ad campaign, or are you employing a team of enforcers to go and speak directly to nearly every African immigrant? Do you have the authority to spend all that money?



But it is a problem with mainly African immigrants, with the procedures performed in Africa. The Guardian readers will probably be 100% against this, and they'll have been roughly 99% against it before their campaign against it. But the campaigns against this, the plays that a British African woman performs in London, they're not much use if the immigrants aren't Guardian readers and aren't going to see her play.



The point is to not to engage with the 7 year old girl who is having the procedure on her and convince her why it's needed, because very few people here ever thought it was needed. The point is that we need to engage with African parents and the African villagers who are arranging these procedures and persuade them to stop.



Well you're assuming wrong.



If you read your links, there are plenty of girls who have had FGM performed on them and didn't actually know. There are British doctors and nurses who perform check ups on children and they don't know what to look for.



I wouldn't convict her if she stabbed you to death. If your car was blown up in an attempt on your life I wouldn't consider them terrorists, I'd consider them freedom fighters.



You consider it to be an evil act. Many African women don't. I personally believe that African women's viewpoint on African women's vagina's are actually worth more than yours.

I think that many Papua New Guinean tribes have screwed up traditions with their boys (and probably girls) which would definitely be considered child abuse in the west. I implore you to go and educate them about their abuse of their children and I will mourn your death when they kill you and eat you.



Virtually 100% of the UK are united in their disgust of child abusers. If public opinion was followed by the government then the punishment for child abuse would probably be slow death.

The same clearly cannot be said for FGM in Africa. There are millions of people who are for FGM, have had it performed on them and want it performed on their children.

They are clearly not the same issues, and I think you are in a very small minority of people who think they are.