Seeing as they entered on the premise that we are in the EU, then the answer should be yes?

That would be a matter of the UK government to decide. I think the Poles and Czechs are fantastic additions to the UK. Not sure about some of the others though!

Which would those be?....

So you mean a transaction tax on transactions enacted in the Uk goes to the Uk tax man?

If so I agree. The thing is any transaction tax that would have come out of this summit would have meant the money raised went to support the Euro.

Now I do not care what colour anyone's politics are it would be a none starter for any UK PM to agree to that.

However while it is Ok to block that idea it is not OK to let the UK tax payer fund our bailout.

Those uk banks that caused the problem here still not paid.

You help me out on something. What do you mean by competitive advantage?

Paying people less than France or Germany?

Germany seems to do very well economically despite being a fully paid up member of the EU and Eurozone despite all the shackles EU rules apparently impose.

Explain to me why Germany can sign up to all these EU things that protect workers and yet be the biggest EU economy?

Good summary. Fair enough, we have to treat the symptoms but absolutely no effort, or even consideration seems to be being given to avoiding a repeat. Which reflects Conservative idealogy, I suppose. You'd think the Liberal Democrats might try and get something done, but they're barely visible, apparently scared to use their leverage.



'Most important' is not very meaningful, by itself. What % of all German car exports come to the UK? We could do some damage, in a kamikaze kinda way, I guess. But it is nowhere near coming to that. There's a new club within a club that we didn't join, but we're still in the first club. Diplomatically it's been a bit clumsy, politically it'll play well in a generally eurosceptic UK electorate, but I don't think there was much of an alternative.

"Club within a Club" - is a desperate phrase. The reality is that the 23-26 will plough on and the UK will either have to crawl back or get out. There is no dignity in what has been done. They'll press ahead will policies that the UK government disapproves of and force our hand to either accept or get out.

What he did was a sign of his abject failure in diplomacy and statesmanship and his utter weakness and inexperience. The man is pathetic. The photographs show he was not comfortable with what he did - so why do it? His weakness within his own party, that's why. Real Conservatives think he's a joke (which he is).

If we were to make a stand - we should should just have negotiated a withdrawal from the EU on favourable terms. What we now have, potentially, is the worst of both worlds. Having said that, these things have a habit of panning out strangely and you never know what comes from it. Most scenarios look bad - unless we get in NAFTA quick. Worst case scenario is the 26 tie up with NAFTA and leave us economically and ultimately militarily isolated.

Against that, we have a great opportunity if we are able to take it, in that the EZ will suffer huge ecocomic drag over the next decade if they persist in trying to save the Euro. Can we take advantage economically? I see little to no prospect given the last 60 years of decline in our industry and political failure.

I've always been pretty much on the fence regarding Europe.....I can understand wanting closer ties with countries like Germany and France, but wanting to 'merge' with many of these Southern European countries just seems a bit suicidal??

Overall though, I'm generally naive to the whole thing and am happy to be advised and influenced by those who claim to know better, so with that in mind, here's 2 questions...

1. Why, 70 years after Germany last tried to take over Europe and people fought so hard to stop this, are most of Europe seemingly content to allow the Germans to finally conquer them and weakly allow them to rule over them?

2. Isn't Britain 'missing out' on the EU the equivalent of the fellow who lost his ticket for the maiden voyage of the Titanic??....Seems bad at the time, but who's laughing at the end?

1. Because they are desperate and misguided. Actually, the French elite (if there is such a thing) quite liked the Germans in WW2.

2. I think the BoE and HMG have done the sums and reckon we can just about survive a collapse ogf the Euro. They may therefore judge that they don't care if it goes under and, if it does the European political problem for the UK goes away. Also, it would give us an economic opportunity to take advantage of the mayhem.

Personally, think an economic area comprises UK, NL, Luxembourg, Scandinavia, Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia would be a good thing.

The French could then strut their stuff with the Belgians and the Southen Europeans.

I think that is a fair enough assessment of both his position and what the rest of the countries will do.



And what favourable terms would those be and why would they be agreed to by the other countries?

There is no escaping the fact that if we leave the EU we will still have to agree to trade by their rules but will have no say at all in what those rules are. Everyone says look at Norway. Well Norway are a small country who are protected by a government that has made judicious use of North Sea Oil and they are cash rich. We are none of that.

What has happened is the complete economic and political marginalisation of the UK.

That is not to say what the rest of the countries are doing is right. It seems completely undemocratic to me to have unelected EU officials and bodies telling elected governments of countries how to set budgets and how to tax. I can understand why Merkozy want this and things like a common corporation tax are in my view a good idea but they are going about it in a completely undemocratic way. I do not think this is lost on the people in some countries either such as Ireland who were supposed to be celebrating 90 years of Irish independence but are now instead in effect a German province.

However regardless of how undemocratic it is they ARE doing it and we are marginalised as a result.



We are isolated already. We still have the EU free market today but going forward the rest will form rules and regulations to suit them including financial regulations that will probably kill London off as the financial centre of the EU. So ultimately Cameron will have failed anyway.

1) It was THREE generations ago, FFS. In any case if you know your history the Nazis wanted to join with us and the French to sort out the Soviets.

2) I have heard this one before. Is it the end?

Pretty much spot on IMO.

Oh, but we're still more obsessed by it than any other nation.

One of the most economically naive statements I've seen posted on here.

Dad's Army....The World at War. Dambusters. The Longest Day.

The war that lost us the Empire and left us in debt to the Yanks. Hmm. Special relationship? Abusive, more like.

It's rather sad that we are obsessed and get very excited over a conflict that turned us from the world's leading power into a basket case. But that was our finest hour. I'm sure it was all done in the best interests of the British Empire.

I'm not anti-German, I'm just curious into why a lot of these countries are now seemingly content to be ruled by them....By all means co-operate, trade, do what you want, but basically drop your trousers and let them shaft you??.....Yes, the Nazi's may have been keen to have us and the French on their side, but the ultimate plan was German rule, with everybody else very much the junior 'partner'....The same impression is unfortunately coming across now - Sarkozy's grovelling to Merkel just reeks of a man seeking to be closest to the German anus for prime licking position in future years of German dominance.

As for the Titanic analogy, its simple .....Getting off the sinking ship can only be a good thing?.....It ain't staying afloat, and on the slim chance it does, you will be the mug funding the re-build, while those who caused the disaster sit back puffing on their cigars.

I'd have to say I have a very soft spot for [iDad's Army[/i, among that selection: I think it remains so successful less because it's set during the war and more because it's a very, very astute take on the British class system and attitudes pertaining to that.



Or possibly simply that we're so desperate to be at the 'top table' and be seen as a 'big player' on the global stage that we do anything that Uncle Sam wants?



I think it was one of the few cases where we were involved in a war where there was a genuine threat against these islands, so it was about self defence and not about self interest in the traditional imperialist way that had so influenced the building of the empire.

I find it fascinating realising just how many wars we had been involved in – when they didn't actually take place on British land, we've tended to forget them. So we even had our finger in the messy, messy pie that was the Thirty Years War – and indeed, many who learnt their soldiering there went on to use those skills again in the English Civil Wars and in Ireland.

So I think that in that sense, WWII really was our moment of doing it for the right reasons. And in that sense, I understand why it continues to exercise such a hold on the national psyche – and particularly, I suspect, for the English, since their self of self-identity was pretty submerged into empire, in a way that was never quite achieved in the rest of the British Isles, where national identities continued – in some cases, as rallying calls against English dominance of the union.

Minty, if the Nazis had wanted to invade the UK then they would have. As it happens they had bigger fish to fry. Thank goodness.

Erm, they did want to invade and we stopped them.

Why try and de-value what our nation did?!

Ermm they didn't.

Did you know that there was a plan to help the Finns against the Soviets before the Nazis wiped out the French and our elite troops?

...I think we've found the holocaust denier amongst us on here.....



(Sorry, just kidding....no offence meant...)

I think we have found a very insensitive @rsehole here, my mum's cousins were gassed by the nazis. If you have any sensitivity you could apologise, but actually I am not too bothered because it was three generations ago.

Do me a favour.

Go and read some history books. I'm not even going to bother posting a link about Hitler wanting to invade. It would be a complete waste of time.

ok, I will if you will.

It's my specialist subject, but I don't suppose it'll bother you, will it?

It's generally tabloid rhetoric that the "Germans will rule Europe". All these European countries are signing up to joint rules and agreements, and when powers are being transferred they are going from national governments and institutions, to the European institutions. Even the Eurosceptics always talk about power being transferred to Brussels...it's not being transferred to Berlin.

Where the part about German influence comes in is that the Germans are driving a hard bargain for the rules they want everyone to sign up to, to be included, these rules are basically about national governments running a tight ship and not getting into debt. The reason the Germans are in a strong position to argue this is because they are the largest and most successful economy in the Eurozone and they are the ones who are having to pay most to keep the others afloat. So whilst the others may complain about having the agenda of what rules to sign up to being dictated by the Germans, the reason they are in this situation is because they are having to ask Germany for help all the time.

A lot of people are negative about the idea that the Germans will have influence over running things, but the Germans do know how to get an educated workforce that produces high quality goods and has a high standard of living, I'm not saying Germany is perfect but it is a more successful model than the UK.