What nonsense.

He apologises for the timing of publication and clarifies the meaning of his cartoon. Not that he should have needed to do so, since it is quite obvious to anyone who isn't [ilooking[/i to be offended that Netanyahu (and not all Jews) was the target. That aside, having clarified his position, he had nothing to apologise for. Your desire for him to have done so - even thought his statement is quite clear - is a little baffling.

I dont need him to have done so I frankly care as little for him as i do you. As i said, i would assume anyone who unintentionally offends someone would apologise for it. I would think less of someone who wouldnt. Just as I would think less of someone thinking that only their interpretation was acceptable.

You did indeed. Not sure what happened there - I'm going to blame a senior moment and walk away whistling nonchalantly to myself.

Another example of people (Jewish people, in this instance) conflating Jews, the Israeli state and the Israeli people. It would certainly be crass to suggest that Jews or the Israeli people are perpetrators of a similar crime (to the holocaust) against the Palestinians, but the Israeli state are fair game for such an accusation.

Or a person who thinks that making stuff up and then trying to argue that it's true is acceptable, perhaps?

Except they arent. Whatever you think of the actions of the Israeli state what is happening isnt anything like the holocaust. These events simply arent analogous or parallel. There are many more relevant and analogous situations which what is happening is similar to.

The crimes arent similar at all, the gaza strip is nothing like Auchwitz and the west bank is nothing like Treblinka.

On a factual basis the two things arent similar at all. Even if you wanted to equate the horror of them, there are still more relevant parallels. They are actually, so distinctly different as situations that if Israel wasnt a Jewish state, no-one would equate it to the holocaust any more than they would equate it to the situation in North Korea or historically Sri Lanka, cambodia, east timor.

I didnt argue it was true, i never denied it was based on my assumption that Mr Scarfe wasnt a horrible person.

it seems it is you who is no making things up.

It does appear that the real cause of the outrage is the timing of publication of the cartoon, rather than its content. Publication dates are hardly within the remit of caroonists, that would have to be made by and editor or proprietor.

Either way, it cartainly seems to have caused more outrage than Dave Brown's award winning cartoon of Ariel Sharon

He admitted no such thing. You made that bit up.

They are systematically oppressing and killing Palestinians. They flout international law to do so. The scale isn't the same as the holocaust, but the end aims are similar, and the means of achieving them little better.

This seems pretty circular, but yes i dont dispute i assumed that Gerald Scarfe wasnt a horrible person.

It would just be easier for all of us if you read one of the many times i have written that rather than you just keep saying, "you said this based on your assumption" and i say "yes, yes i did"

But then you deny that you made something up. You made an assumption that clearly wasn't reasonable to make, given the clarity of his statement, then tried to dress it up as something else.

Either way, it's sod all to do with him 'being a horrible person', it's to do with whether or not he had anything to apologise for. Which, after clarifying his position (and arguably before that), he did not. Your silly 'assumption' does little to advance the debate.

Im sure if you wanted, you could make pretty much anything analogous by in the way you have there. Though I would question why you would want to do so.

The means are ridiculously different, the end aims also massively different, the reasons for doing so very very different, in fact it is more correct to just say, they are very very different things. The West Bank and Gaza strip arent anything like the concentration camps. Its just fairly obvious that the Israel-palestinian conflict isnt anything like the holocaust. Which leaves a pretty valid question of why someone would want to equate them.

I never actually said he would apologise for the point he was trying to make, i was quite clear on that. My assumption was that he would apologise for unintentionally offending someone. My assumption was that Gerald Scarfe would have rather communicated what he meant to communicate and stand by that, rather than unintentionally communicate something else, then ignore the offense that would cause.

Not really.



The means are ridiculously different? They kill and oppress Palestinians. That the Nazis did so with gas chambers and the Israeli state does not hardly equates to the two being 'ridiculously different'. The end aims aren't particularly different, either. They want to drive Palestinians out of their lands and take them for their own. If they don't leave of their own accord, they'll be mistreated or killed. Once again, not 'ridiculously different'. What you have is an imbalance of power - the Israeli state holds all of it, the Palestinians none. I'd imagine if you spoke to any Palestinian caught up in the 'conflict', that they'd feel every bit as wronged as the Jews in Nazi Germany did.

You said:

"But even the artist is in agreement that there was a better time, place and way of him doing so."

That is quite obviously not the case. He mentioned only the time. He did not say there was a better [iplace[/i for him to make his point, nor did he express any regret at the [iway[/i he'd made it.

Nonsense just complete nonsense. Lets see you back up the point, lets see the similarities that exist only between the holocaust and the israel-palestinian conflict. Not vague nonsense like above which could probably apply to any conflict over the last thousand years, but real and tangible links between only the holocaust and the israel-palestine conflict that means they are valid and useful parallels.

If you want to assume Gerald Scarfe is happy that his cartoon was misinterpreted then fine, i dont care. I assume he would want to make the point he actually wanted to make rather than have it interpreted in another way, that he didnt mean.

Nobody has made that assumption.


He did make the point that he wanted to make. That [isome[/i people misunderstood that point - quite possibly deliberately in certain cases - is not his fault and he therefore has nothing to apologise for. Which is why he didn't.

Quote ="SmokeyTA"Nonsense just complete nonsense. Lets see you back up the point, lets see the similarities that exist only between the holocaust and the israel-palestinian conflict. Not vague nonsense like above which could probably apply to any conflict over the last thousand years, but real and tangible links between only the holocaust and the israel-palestine conflict that means they are valid and useful parallels.'" Well some seem to think that the Israelis are carrying on an obvious policy of Ghettoisation ( the outcome for the Palestinians maybe different from say Warsaw) but the techniques are similar and the eventual outcome is the creating for the Israeli state Lebensraum. www.zcommunications.org/palestin ... amira-hass ( written by a Jewish woman) who is not anti semitic but then again if your a jewish and you argue against Israeli policies against the Palestinians you are probably just described as being self hating.

Quote ="SmokeyTA"Nonsense just complete nonsense. Lets see you back up the point, lets see the similarities that exist only between the holocaust and the israel-palestinian conflict. Not vague nonsense like above which could probably apply to any conflict over the last thousand years, but real and tangible links between only the holocaust and the israel-palestine conflict that means they are valid and useful parallels.'" Well some seem to think that the Israelis are carrying on an obvious policy of Ghettoisation ( the outcome for the Palestinians maybe different from say Warsaw) but the techniques are similar and the eventual outcome is the creating for the Israeli state Lebensraum. www.zcommunications.org/palestin ... amira-hass ( written by a Jewish woman) who is not anti semitic but then again if your a jewish and you argue against Israeli policies against the Palestinians you are probably just described as being self hating.

clearly he didnt or he wouldnt have needed to clarify it. If he needed to clarify it then it is obvious there is a better way of communicating what he was trying to communicate, one which didnt rely on the clarification.

Quote ="Durham Giant"Well some seem to think that the Israelis are carrying on an obvious policy of Ghettoisation ( the outcome for the Palestinians maybe different from say Warsaw) but the techniques are similar and the eventual outcome is the creating for the Israeli state Lebensraum. www.zcommunications.org/palestin ... amira-hass ( written by a Jewish woman) who is not anti semitic but then again if your a jewish and you argue against Israeli policies against the Palestinians you are probably just described as being self hating.'" But that hasnt happened only during the holocaust. It doesnt accurately describe the situation to say it is like the holocaust and i repeat, if Israel wasnt a Jewish state, nobody would compare it to the holocaust.

Quote ="Durham Giant"Well some seem to think that the Israelis are carrying on an obvious policy of Ghettoisation ( the outcome for the Palestinians maybe different from say Warsaw) but the techniques are similar and the eventual outcome is the creating for the Israeli state Lebensraum. www.zcommunications.org/palestin ... amira-hass ( written by a Jewish woman) who is not anti semitic but then again if your a jewish and you argue against Israeli policies against the Palestinians you are probably just described as being self hating.'" But that hasnt happened only during the holocaust. It doesnt accurately describe the situation to say it is like the holocaust and i repeat, if Israel wasnt a Jewish state, nobody would compare it to the holocaust.

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/rupert-murdoch-links-sympathy-for-palestinians-to-antisemitism-the-truth-is-more-complex-8471756.htmlWhy the cartoon was not anti-semitic, why Murdoch is a prat – and some questions about some of Israel's right-wing supporters[/url

Smokey and Melanie Phillips, eh?

Just a reminder: it is/was not 'the Jewish Holocaust'. A quarter of the Nazis' victims were not killed because they were Jewish, but for other reasons, including but not limited to their ethnicity, their politics, their sexuality.

The people whinging about the cartoon are the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
How thick does that board have to be to equate a picture of Netanyahu with themselves?
Their reasoning is that the cartoon was "shockingly reminiscent of the blood libel imagery …" ([ithe BBC article explains that the term "blood libel" refers to myths dating back to the Middle Ages that Jews murdered children to use their blood during religious rituals.[/i)
So, they are saying that ANY imagery objecting to ANY Jew doing harm to children (whether it is clear that the image is not about Jews in general or not … or specifically about an Israeli leader or not) is going to be met with wails about being similar to medieval stories.

By not limiting their complaint to the Holocaust Day timing, they are, frankly, deliberately missing the point and no cartoonist can avoid that.
I’d have more respect for them if they distanced themselves from Netanyahu’s acts.
There must be an awful lot of Jews in Britain who just wish the board of Deputies of British Jews would just shut up.