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One of the arguments being put forward for Assange not being sent to Sweden boils down to Assange saying he's innocent and therefore shouldn't be sent there, regardless of Swedish authorities determining that he has a case to answer? Absolute bonkersville. Why haven't all criminals thought of that? Its so simple its brilliant!
The other is the possibility/likelihood of Assange further being deported to the US, despite there being no evidence at all that this would be easier from Sweden (which would also insist on no death penalty) than the UK.
As for nonsense placing Ecuador as some sort of shining light with respect to human rights or following 'due process', I suggest you have a look at the records of the country according to the likes of Amnesty International before making such ludicrous claims, particularly when it comes to freedom of speech.
If Assange ever does end up skipping to Ecuador, and there seems no chance of him ever facing charges in Sweden, I hope the women involved are brave enough to come forward and give their memories of what happened. Perhaps some of Assange's defenders would feel less comfortable if a human face was put on these accusations, as to me they ought to be first and foremost to everyone, not some afterthought.
Still, who cares about the rights of a couple of women who may have been the victims of real crime when we can spout cr*p about Sweden and appoint Ecuador and its President as defenders of freedom whilst sticking two fingers up at the US?
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The last line gives away the motives of the Assange defenders IMO If he was facing the possibility of being extradited to Canada there wouldn't be half this fuss.
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A more thorough debunking of the pro-Assange piffle would be difficult to envisage. |
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A more thorough debunking of the pro-Assange piffle would be difficult to envisage. | |
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I havent actually argued anywhere that it isnt legal for Sweden to demand extradition, simply that it is wrong (morally, not legally) that a man can be forcibly extradited and detained, from this country, without it being proved there is a prima facie case for him to answer. It is wrong that we have allowed laws like this to exist in this country. And a couple of those points are the authors opinion, not fact.
This seems to simply fall back on the trustworthy ol' swedes dodgy south americans argument. We arent perfect, Sweden isnt perfect. If anything the past decade should have taught is its that the relationship between our government and our press is much further away from ideal than we could have even imagined.
I would imagine that situations reversed that the cases of people like David Kelly and the phone hacking scandal would be used in similar circumstances to discredit the relationship between the British press and Government. I also imagine that there wouldnt be the clamour here for a British citizen to be extradited from a Swedish embassy to Ecuador to face the same charges after said British citzen had blown the whistle on some pretty immoral military action by the Colombian government.
The author of the first link even provides a handy example of the British criminal justice system persecuting somebody and pretty much ruining their life even though they were innocent of all charges www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david ... imon-walsh
If Mr Assange is proven innocent, we have been complicit to making the same error in justice of subjecting someone to de facto punishment prior to there actually been proof of guilt. |
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I havent actually argued anywhere that it isnt legal for Sweden to demand extradition, simply that it is wrong (morally, not legally) that a man can be forcibly extradited and detained, from this country, without it being proved there is a prima facie case for him to answer. It is wrong that we have allowed laws like this to exist in this country. And a couple of those points are the authors opinion, not fact.
This seems to simply fall back on the trustworthy ol' swedes dodgy south americans argument. We arent perfect, Sweden isnt perfect. If anything the past decade should have taught is its that the relationship between our government and our press is much further away from ideal than we could have even imagined.
I would imagine that situations reversed that the cases of people like David Kelly and the phone hacking scandal would be used in similar circumstances to discredit the relationship between the British press and Government. I also imagine that there wouldnt be the clamour here for a British citizen to be extradited from a Swedish embassy to Ecuador to face the same charges after said British citzen had blown the whistle on some pretty immoral military action by the Colombian government.
The author of the first link even provides a handy example of the British criminal justice system persecuting somebody and pretty much ruining their life even though they were innocent of all charges www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david ... imon-walsh
If Mr Assange is proven innocent, we have been complicit to making the same error in justice of subjecting someone to de facto punishment prior to there actually been proof of guilt. | |
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| Quote ="Him"Yes it is. You are saying he shouldn't be arrested because he doesn't want to be.
'" No, im saying he shouldnt be forcibly extradited and detained without the Swedish prosecutors proving to a British judge that this case will, justifiably, go to trial.
Quote How is that any different to being arrested prior to trial anywhere in the world? Once again, you are saying that people can only be arrested after the case against them has been proven. The only way to prove a case is with a trial. So are you saying that the trial should take place before he is arrested?'" But this case may not go to trial, we arent at a stage of making that decision yet. That is the issue. We are forcibly extraditing someone to face a trial which may or may not go ahead. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I havent actually argued anywhere that it isnt legal for Sweden to demand extradition, simply that it is wrong (morally, not legally) that a man can be forcibly extradited and detained, from this country, without it being proved there is a prima facie case for him to answer.... '"
I tell you what's not 'moral', Smokes – the readiness with which the disciples of St Julian of Assange are acting as bloody apologists for rape.
Plus there's the sheer ignorance of the fact that different country's judicial systems don't all actually work in the same way as that in the UK.
And he has had three opportunities to challenge the European arrest warrant, before three different courts, and all believe there is no reason to overturn the decision.
Of course, he could just stop being a cowardly twok and go to Sweden and face the arrest and the charges – and any further process. If he's innocent he will then be free.
If not, he'll serve the due punishment.
But this seems to be rocket science for his cultists.
[url=http://thevoluptuousmanifesto.blogspot.fr/2012/08/dancing-to-beat-of-st-julian.htmlFWIW, my thoughts on the subject.[/url |
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[url=http://storify.com/anyapalmer/why-doesn-t-sweden-interview-assange-in-london?utm_campaign=&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&awesm=sfy.co_e56c&utm_content=storify-pingback&utm_source=t.coStuff here about the Swedish judicial system re arrest, charge etc.[/url
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| Quote ="Mintball"I tell you what's not 'moral', Smokes – the readiness with which the disciples of St Julian of Assange are acting as bloody apologists for rape.
Plus there's the sheer ignorance of the fact that different country's judicial systems don't all actually work in the same way as that in the UK.
And he has had three opportunities to challenge the European arrest warrant, before three different courts, and all believe there is no reason to overturn the decision.
Of course, he could just stop being a cowardly twok and go to Sweden and face the arrest and the charges – and any further process. If he's innocent he will then be free.
If not, he'll serve the due punishment.
But this seems to be rocket science for his cultists.
[url=http://thevoluptuousmanifesto.blogspot.fr/2012/08/dancing-to-beat-of-st-julian.htmlFWIW, my thoughts on the subject.[/url'"
In what way have i apologised for rape? at all?
I understand the swedish judicial system is different, the Saudi justice system is also different. I can accept they are different, i dont have to accept they are right. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"No, im saying he shouldnt be forcibly extradited and detained without the Swedish prosecutors proving to a British judge that this case will, justifiably, go to trial.
But this case may not go to trial, we arent at a stage of making that decision yet. That is the issue. We are forcibly extraditing someone to face a trial which may or may not go ahead.'"
But again, that is an argument that a suspect shouldn't be arrested before they are charged, which is daft.
We arent at that stage because that stage HAS to come AFTER an arrest, that's the only way an effective system could ever work. Otherwise you would have a situation where prosecutors are charging suspects without hearing their evidence.
Oh and a prima facie case has been made, that's why the arrest warrant was deemed legal. |
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| Quote ="Him"But again, that is an argument that a suspect shouldn't be arrested before they are charged, which is daft.
We arent at that stage because that stage HAS to come AFTER an arrest, that's the only way an effective system could ever work. Otherwise you would have a situation where prosecutors are charging suspects without hearing their evidence.
Oh and a prima facie case has been made, that's why the arrest warrant was deemed legal.'"
No, im not. Im not saying anything even close to people needing to be charged before they are arrested. im saying there is a difference between arrest and forcible extradition and detention and the standard and need for proof should be higher because the effect of forcible extradition and detention on someone we are supposed to presume is innocent is much greater. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"No, im not. Im not saying anything even close to people needing to be charged before they are arrested. im saying there is a difference between arrest and forcible extradition and detention and the standard and need for proof should be higher because the effect of forcible extradition and detention on someone we are supposed to presume is innocent is much greater.'"
No you are suggesting that a decision to charge should already have been made before the suspect is arrested, as the decision to charge is necessary for a trial to be held. |
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| Quote ="Him"No you are suggesting that a decision to charge should already have been made before the suspect is arrested, as the decision to charge is necessary for a trial to be held.'"
No, im not. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"No, im not.'"
Really?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"No, im saying he shouldnt be forcibly extradited and detained without the Swedish prosecutors proving to a British judge that this case will, justifiably, go to trial.
But this case may not go to trial, we arent at a stage of making that decision yet. That is the issue. We are forcibly extraditing someone to face a trial which may or may not go ahead.'" |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"In what way have i apologised for rape? at all?
I understand the swedish judicial system is different, the Saudi justice system is also different. I can accept they are different, i dont have to accept they are right.'"
Well then, if you have such great understanding, why are you claiming that it would be "immoral" for him to be sent back to Sweden to face a judicial process that is at advanced stage?
This is one of the tenets of the faithful – and in it, the two women have become unimportant, just as Bradley Manning was/is to St Julian the sociopath.
PS: he's a free-market capitalist, BTW, not some arch revolutionary. It's one of the ironies of some on the left wetting their knickers over him. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"No, im not. Im not saying anything even close to people needing to be charged before they are arrested. im saying there is a difference between arrest and forcible extradition and detention'"
yes. The second occurs when the suspect has fled the jurisdiction of the court and police authorities to prevent the first happening |
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And, of course, there was a very simple course open to Assange to avoid the forcible extradition and detention following the European Arrest Warrent - simply return to Sweden under his own steam and clear his name, in a trial if necessary.
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well then, if you have such great understanding, why are you claiming that it would be "immoral" for him to be sent back to Sweden to face a judicial process that is at advanced stage?'" Because i dont think the necessary evidence has been shown to justify forcible extradition and detention.
Quote This is one of the tenets of the faithful – and in it, the two women have become unimportant, just as Bradley Manning was/is to St Julian the sociopath.
PS: he's a free-market capitalist, BTW, not some arch revolutionary. It's one of the ironies of some on the left wetting their knickers over him.'" You are being silly. It is sad that we dont catch all rapists, its terrible that so many get away with it. But nobody, even rape victims, benefits from innocent people being punished.
Our attempts to bring justice for rape victims are only undermined by us punishing innocent people as we presume Assange is, or we are supposed to presume he is. |
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| Quote ="tb"yes. The second occurs when the suspect has fled the jurisdiction of the court and police authorities to prevent the first happening'"
No, the second occurs when the suspect is in a different jurisdiction. Your criteria arent pre-requisites. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Because i dont think the necessary evidence has been shown to justify forcible extradition and detention...'"
And obviously you know better than three different courts and goodness know how many lawyers, including people like David Allen Green.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"You are being silly. It is sad that we dont catch all rapists, its terrible that so many get away with it. But nobody, even rape victims, benefits from innocent people being punished.
Our attempts to bring justice for rape victims are only undermined by us punishing innocent people as we presume Assange is, or we are supposed to presume he is.'"
in which case, nobody will ever be extradited if they have not already been tried.
Jebus effing wept.
And you call me "silly".
Oh, BTW, did you catch the bit about that bastion of free speech, Ecuador, preparing to send back to that other bastion of human rights, Belarus, someone they'd given asylum to?
WTF does it say about Assange that he picks a country where free speech and freedoms of the press are going down the toilet? sounds like a consistent approach to ethics ...
Although, if he understood what ethics were, he might not have coughed up Bradley Manning to the authorities quite so quickly, eh? But then he doesn't care. About anything except himself.
He's a cowardly, sociopathic narcissist with a messiah complex.
And some people fall for it. |
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Smokey, it has been proved he has a case to answer, other than a trial what other way could the Swedish authorities prove to you that he should be extradited?
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George Galloway showing how utterly crazy he is by describing rape as "bad sexual etiquette".
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| Quote ="Him"George Galloway showing how utterly crazy he is by describing rape as "bad sexual etiquette".'"
What else would you expect from the man? |
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| Quote ="Him"Smokey, it has been proved he has a case to answer'"
How can it have been proved he has a case to answer when he has not even been formally questioned ? The EAW is for his extradition so he can be questioned, not for him to be prosecuted, which is not in accordance with the rules for EAW's.
Furthermore, how can an arrest warrant be issued by a prosecutor - surely such a warrant should be issued by an impartial party such as a judge ? A prosecutor can not, and should not, constitute a relevant judicial authority.
The EAW system is open to abuse, as the less publicised case of Dr Miguel-Angel Meizoso shows.
I am not a fan of Assange by any measure but this whole saga is tainted with the underlying notion that we are once again being the US's poodle. |
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