Back in Victorian times, grief was more or less a constant companion for most British families. Infant mortality was huge and life expectancy small. So you could say it wouldn't be worth changing out of the black garb as you would need to don it again pretty soon after.

As for all the weeping and wailing that goes on nowadays, I reckon it's down to the covert feminisation of all things masculine.

Life expectancy was not low. The stats used by people claiming this are weighted by high infant mortality and death in childbirth. If you got through that, then there were fair chances you'd live quite a long time.



Not very macho in the first place, were you then, if a bit of "covert feminisation" has made you all ready to blub at the first opoortunity.

If I die on the road I'd quite like an old teddy bear tied to a lamp post until it turns green - the colour that killed me.

Boys weren't expected to cry, in fact you was considered soft if you did, whilst it was accepted that girls could cry whenever, without suffering any humiliation. This has changed, probably for the better but you now get blokes blubbing just as much as women, hence the increase in shows of public emotion.

Nothing wrong with men crying. I've done my fair share recently.

I have to admit I did twice cry in public as a boy so have to admit to being a bit soft. Once was after been hit with a hammer and once when I thought someone had broken my back. With regard to the first incident I went running home to my Mum who told me not to be so soft and go and hit the lad concerned. A few minutes later the two mothers heard the screaming and came to drag me off him as I had him against a wall punching him incessantly. It's probably a good thing they came out.

Probably would have been a good thing to let you finish - you've been bottling the frustration up ever since.

You're right. Just saying that if half the population are repressed from an early age, into not showing any emotion, when the blocks come off you have a tidal outpouring.

You are right about the blocks coming off and...whoooosh !!!!

If I take Princess Diana's case first - This was a predominantly female response to the only 'human face' of the royal family,at that time.She was murdered in horrific circumstances in a foreign country.She was known around the world and envied by many.I didn't witness the funeral but the death of any young woman in similar circumstances,(not that Mercedes Benz cars allow too many passengers to be killed and are never driven by drunken men,) would involve a great deal of sympathy.
Fabrice Muamba brought great public support as it was played out in front of 30,000 + people inside a soccer stadium (and live on tv.) which would have led to those with a modicum of humanity wanting 'NOT' to have been present at the death of a young man who,even as a soccer player,has something of a reputation for NOT being in trouble with the authorities on or off the field and was a very popular individual with many players from different teams.That is not always the case with modern soccer players.''The sudden apparent explosion in religious sentiment'' was,I believe,started by another soccer player and continued by family members after they had visited him in hospital.
I do NOT understand why you signed to have the files released regarding the Hillsborough disaster.It won't bring any of the deceased back.Do you have a real and personal connection ? Did you know any of the deceased ? Had you even met any of them ?
I don't think Manchester United refuse to play on the anniversary of the Munich disaster.
The Daily Mail may have a readership of a certain age group that were able to recall the Queen Mother and her work during the war.I realise the paper may be politically opposed to your own beliefs but a significant number of people apparently rated the Queen Mother.Just because the country won't respond in the same way as they did for Princess Diana when a Labour politician or one of those scientists die,it does you no credit to pour scorn on popular individuals.
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With regard to flowers left at the roadside.A line in a song goes,''Sometimes flowers ain't enough.''
Instead of people leaving flowers where motorists die why not prevent the death in the first place ?
People drive correctly and don't start wars with foreign countries where Brits.surrender their lives.

If Hillsborough is a memorial/celebration of lives lost they can't really do that with Heysel, would be a bit off.

Really?

You have evidence for that?

Everyone knows. It was in The Express wasn't it?


On a related note, the endless bewailing of the McCann story continues abated. I see that Madeleine has been seen again by someone. Do you want to bet that they saw a little girl who looked a bit like Madeleine WHEN SHE VANISHED, not as she would be now?

Should the Mccans give up then?

But if its about remembrance ?

I went to Heysel last year for an athletics event and I failed to say a prayer or tie a teddy to the railings.
I feel really guilty now.

Then they should respect it the same way they do Hillsborough.

Liverpool fc are a contradiction on many levels, I don't see why this should be different.

If I were a Juve fan I wouldn't want them having anything to do with the Heysel memorial.

Do you think so? I would say support for monarchism is higher than I've ever seen it. It's a much more difficult task to find someone opposed to it these days as it once was. It used to be there was majority opposition to monarchism, now I'm not all that sure there is.

Pro-monarchy, pro-establishment sentiment is at an all time high.

Some people just can't think for themselves and react how they believe they're expected to react.

Look at the reaction to the Kony campaign, that shows what you're talking about x100. These people don't really care, really. You could tell them about so many abhorrent crimes with thousands, tens of thousands, sometimes millions dying, and you'd be lucky to get a shrug from them. The reason why is because they're not told by society to care or grieve, so they don't bother. When they are expected to react in that way (as in the Kony viral nonsense) then they do.

It's fickle and artificial, mostly.

If they hadn't left their daughter alone in a room whilst they were out then they'd not be going through what they are going through. Child neglect pure and simple.

I like this thread, though i won't touch on the Hillsbrough issue as i fear i may go off on one.

I was 12 when Diana was killed in Paris, i was on holiday with my foster parents and their own children. I got back to the caravan after going swimming and my foster mum, tears in eye, told me that Princess Diana had died, to which my response was (exact words) ''oh, well it's just the Royal Family minus one isn't it''. You wouldn't believe the scorn i had poured on me for that comment. Then on the day of the funeral, there was my foster mum and her daughter, sat watching the funeral in tears, and they were disgusted that i wandered off into the street to play cricket with my mates, then getting moaned at later in the day for 'playing cricket instead of observing the minutes silence'.

I didn't care then, and nor would i / will care now if anything like that happens to someone who i do not know personally.

I know we've been through this one many, many times before – but it was entirely standard practice not that many years ago, before our current culture of paranoia took hold. And it was not "neglect".

So assuming you are a Warrington fan, and if Briers, Hodgson and Westwood for instance all heaven forbid got got killed in a car crash you wouldn't care?

Don't agree. It's pro-monarchy, pro-establishment propaganda that's at an all time high. Even though the Republican inclined person doesn't have a voice there's still a good few about.

Indeed, my brother and I were left in a caravan every night of our annual holidays while our parents went out a-drinking and a-dancing when I was a kid, every child was and there was no shortage of paedophiles in the 1960s (its not a new phenomenon), and I and my wife have left our two children in a hotel room while we popped down to the bar for a drink on more than one occasion - we also let them play out on the streets and we didn't always make them wear helmets and elbow/knee pads when they played on their bikes, they've grown up to be two confident adults, the odd physical scar here and there from falling off bikes but what the hell...