Quote ="sally cinnamon"Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark. Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive... www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours'" Also worth noting pay restraint amongst German workers which is behind some of that productivity. The structure of their economy is different to say the UK or the basket cases, I think it's very interesting but off on a tangent.

Quote ="sally cinnamon"Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark. Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive... www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours'" Also worth noting pay restraint amongst German workers which is behind some of that productivity. The structure of their economy is different to say the UK or the basket cases, I think it's very interesting but off on a tangent.

See my comment on the football decision thread.

It's a question of political will and the backing of the electorate.
Germany managed to drag a post-communist East Germany into the the late 20th century but I think you're right in that they won't want fiscal union with (or more bail-outs for) non-German countries whose economies are less vibrant than their own.

But let's not forget that it wasn't the basic notion of the Euro that caused the Eurozone mess.
It was down to
a) Putting a common currency ahead of fiscal union (into which fiscal union I would include the invention of Euro bonds) in the calendar of events.
b) Letting Greece into the Euro with incredibly dodgy data about the size of their deficit.
c) The banking crisis !!

i.e. We must absolutely not forget that our own quantitative easing and all the rest of it (that we have been able to do and the Greeks can't) wouldn't have been needed if the banking crisis hadn't happened.

They don't seem to have the same income gap in Germany as we do over here, do they?

It's been obvious for years that Europeans have been living above their productive means.

a. But that's the whole point it was. The politicians knew they had no popular mandate but thought they'd steam ahead anyway. I have doubts that there is sufficient common culture to allow a political and fiscal union to succeed in any case. That would require long-term subsidies to peoples of differeing cultures and outlooks and / or mass migration from poorer to richer areas. I think it would end in bloodshed. Always have.

b. Not just Greece. Even Germany didn't meet the criteria! I think only Luxembourg did.

c. The banking crisis is a debt crisis, ultimately cause by politicians, people living above their means and in the case of fringe areas of the EU the falwed Euro project, so we go back to the start!

On the basis that, on another thread, you have said that you have no savings, presumably you were one of those doing this.

No. I have no material debts either. I have net assets of a reasonable sum.

To negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU (as Norway has done) means you have to accept EU regulations. In that sense you are een worse off because being outside the EU you have no influence at all on those regulations. The idea a FTA with the EU would give us the trade links we have now minus us having to be part of it with all that entails is simplistic wishful thinking.



The Human Rights Act has nothing to do with the EU because it relates to the International Convention of Human Rights which is not run by an EU institution and never has been. All the act does is clarify the relationship between UK Human Rights law and our countries obligations under the Convention. If we left the EU the Human Rights Act is one thing that simply would not change because it is nothing to do with the EU.



The Euro has failed or is failing because it was never just about economics but was driven as much by politics. The German's could probably weather a Greek exit but they would then face a stronger Euro and that may then force Ireland, Spain and Portugal (maybe even Italy) into trouble and possibly out.

Before you know where you are you end up with a Eurozone of just the big economies and they don't want that either. I think people underestimate the political will to maintain the Euro even with the likes of Greece in it.

I don't think people do under-estimate the political will to maintain it. That political will is the whole problem.

In the UK we have pay restraint for low and middle earners. The top earners however see their pay exploding, this is because they 'need to attract the best'.

And also apparently it will trickle down lol.

Yes, there are more players from the English premier league in Euro 2012 than from any other league and England are the only team were all the players play at home. That strongly suggests pay rates are disproprtionately high here - presumably to attract the 'best' talent like Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, etc. It's clear we've all started to ear alot more since second rate footballers in the England squad (aka as talented individuals) have been earning millions.

Nowt to do with the fact that we just produce [is[/ihit soccer players then?

The two are pretty much the same thing Coddy. If we could produce world class players then we'd not need to import foreign superstars.



See Super League for further details.

Without wishing to stray too far into VT territory, I have to laugh at those who think the solution to a lack of talent in SL is to reduce the number of teams playing in the comp. Completely ignoring the fact that the real solution is to increase and then nurture the available pool of players to select from. Austerity eh?

I'm entirely on your side on that one.

Obviously the fewer players we have would lead to the talent in the country being concentrated into those few players rather than each player having their own. Makes perfect sense.


Anyway.......

Nowt wrong with Human Rights, its the way its abused as an excuse for most things that is the problem.

It is a shame that due to club greed and all the money in the game now, we'll never have another Kevin Keegan, or more significantly someone Like Phil Neal, you know, people form the lower divisions who come on and end up in the pinnacle of the game playing for England, or in Neal's case win more domestic medals than any other player who has played for England.

Instead it's a question of buying some geezer who's played for the world powerhouses of countries like Egypt instead. Fuçked innit?

A number of the current England squad began their careers outside the top flight.

Which of them are you ignoring?

As well as having their currency held down by poor countries who they can then wave their fingers at for being economically backward, the Germans have also been able to sell their 'green' credentials on the back of the use of benchmark data preceding the closure of awful East German manufacturing and dirty power stations. They were able to meet their green targets simply by closing those down and opening new, cleaner plants and power stations, which they would have done without any 'green' targets at all.

Most Germans I've met are incredibly pro-European. It would be interesting to see how they feel if they were actually to be made to stump up to genuinely support the Euro nations, instead of riding on their coat-tails.

Yeah, it's not like Scott Parker, Joe Hart, Oxade-Chamberlain, Walcott, Lescott, Jagielka, Defoe or Ashley Young started their careers in the lower divisions.

Its a shame we'll never produce another Keegan because he was amazing when he played for England? The fact is England doesn't produce genuinly world class footballers, we never have really.

Probably most.

How many played in what would be the old 4th Division? Like Keegan, Clemence etc.

Money's f*ed up football. Team's can buy premierships.

plus LFC also got one of our greatest most skillful player s from Skemersdale namely the great Steve Heighway and also another favourite of mine Jimmy Case came from Marine FC.
Those days are gone forever now.

And Phil Neal was signed from 4th Division Northampton.

Yeah, <insert foreign manager here>, would sign players from the old 4th Division these days. NOT. Unlike the England players illustrated above.

THe scouting systems these days are such that a potential England player would likely be picked up by a Premiership or Championship club before they reached 10 years old.

An acquaintance of mine was telling me how her 9 year old grandson "has just signed for Manchester United". When she explained in more detail, he has very little actual contact with Manchester United. But they've established "first dibbs" on him, keep an eye on his development etc.

Without wishing to stray too far off topic: those who hark back to the mythical "golden Age" of English football need a reality check. Apart from the 1966 World Cup Final win, the England footbal team have been for decades. It's got buggerall to do with the amount of money in the game, when the game was skint we were , now with the game being incredibly awash with money, we're still .