The final argument there doesn't work – any more than saying that, because it sells a lot, the [iSun[/i is the greatest newspaper in the UK or McDonalds is the best restaurant.

I made a qualification for [iLes Mis[/i – see above. Personally, I remember [iMaster of the House[/i, the dream one and, I think, the act one close, which seemed to me to be the one really spine-tingling moment in the entire show.

But you don't have to have seen any Rogers and Hammerstein to have heard the tunes – unlike what you're asserting here with [iMiss Saignon[/i.

[iThere Is Nothing Like a Dame[/i, [iYou'll Never Walk Alone[/i, [iMy Favourite Things[/i, [iOklahoma![/i, [iThe March of the Siamese Children[/i – these are part of a widespread popular cultural currency. You might not have heard them in their original context, but you'll have heard them. They've been part of a soundtrack to western (certainly English-speaking) life for 40 years and more.

Goodness – almost the entire score of [iThe Sound of Music[/i alone is popular currency – and whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

And you will know Gershwin and Porter songs – unless you are a total cultural illiterate (and no, I am not posting that as an insult). Their work – like many of R&H's songs – has spread itself beyond the boundaries of an actual stage show or film.

For goodness sake, if someone doesn't have even a vague awareness of [iSummertime[/i, they need shooting. If you want to hear really top-notch popular music, listen to the Gershwin or the Porter Songbooks, recorded by Ella Fitzgerald. This is stuff that people still sing and people still record.

As for lyricists – well, I scarcely know what to say if you really think that.

[iI've Got a Little List[/i would be no different without the words (and Gilbert & Sullivan are one of the harbingers of the modern musical theatre). All the songs from [iCabaret[/i – the words tell us nothing; they add nothing to the story. Nobody on the Kop actually bothers singing the words of [iYou'll Never Walk Alone[/i – they adopted it as a club anthem for the music alone so they actually just go 'la la la la la' ...

And god help us if this is snobbery. Because it will simply indicate just how far down the path of mediocrity and dross we have gone.

More so if you can imagine that the woki sounds like fookin'.
Listen to it again.

I am clearly virtually noboby! Could not in a million years have named those songs from PoO (no pun intended). Even when you've written them down they mean nothing to me. I concede if I heard the main one(s) I would no doubt recognise it (them), but names , no. From Evita, I could only name Don't Cry for Me Argentina.

Mind you, I have heard of ALL the R&H ones that Mintball listed. That though is probably due to the power of film.

If you heard them, you would recognise them. Type them into that video sharing site we're not allowed to mention and you will see what I mean.

I think that's grossly unfair. I'm not a massive fan of Lloyd Webber, but there's no doubting his talent as a songwriter. Sure, he might not produce five songs in every show that become popular in their own right, but most of what he writes works well in context. And there have been more than a few notable exceptions, as previously mentioned, where his songs have transcended the show. To credit Rice alone for 'injecting quality' into their combined work is not only unfair, it's plain wrong. It's usually the case with any successful song writing partnership, that neither partner is as good at what they do without the other.

Being of a certain age I am familiar with the American stuff, and it's just great. I still find myself belting out one of those numbers from time to time. Works of art they are, in a very theatrical way.

ALW has however produced some great stuff. If it's an argument about quantity of quality tunes in shows well I suppose he comes off second best. But that doesn't mean he's not a force in musical theatre.

His songs will stand the test of time just like the American ones.

If Mintball were to have an offspring, I could just imagine them singing the praises of ALW on the forums of tomorrow and saying 'they don't write them like that anymore'.
Block ... chip etc.

Everyone knows that Lloyd Webber just plagiarises music anyway.



Who would have thought that the ESC could have developed into such discussions?

Indeed it is. It's also popular music that reached the overwhelming majority of people who have heard it through cinema before mass adoption of television, reached a wider audience as the first international smash hit films that appeared on mass adopted television and was inherently American when America still had a touch of shining city on a hill about it.

Let's not pretend that their sheen, or that of anything to do with Webber, is purely about the music.

That was a point I was going to make earlier regarding Mintball's dismissal of ALW's music as only being good because Tim Rice wrote the words.

To put together a great theatre production you need the music, the words and the visuals. The misconception is that, in an ALW production, he does everything, when in reality he concieves the idea and writes the music. People like Trevor Nunn are often brought in to stage it, Lawrence Connor to direct it, various people, such as Rice, Hart, Stilgoe write lyrics, Cameron Mackintosh adds the magic and so on. The same names often crop up on virtually all of the big productions.

I didn't say he'd never penned a memorable song – although the ones mentioned have almost all come from the era where Rice was his collaborator, except for two from [iPhantom[/i[, which had releases as singles.

I actually found [iJoseph[/i quite jolly fun – but it has one instantly recognisable show stopper and the rest, to be frank, are pretty much forgettable (and I do have the album).

There are plenty of other shows where there have been a paucity of memorable numbers – but the likes of Stephen Schwarz, Richard Adler, Jule Styne and even Jerry Hermann are not generally hailed on the same level of the likes of the great partnerships and composers I mentioned earlier (that selection crosses a number of generations, by the way).



[My emphasis



Ah, but I haven't asserted that he isn't. I simply find the amount of plaudits that he's given to be irritating in the extreme and out of proportion with his actual ability as a composer – which, in effect, you've pretty much agreed with me on.

His songs will stand the test of time just like the American ones...'"

And how much, then do such big production values provide cover for the quality (or otherwise) of the actual show, in the same way that much (not all) of the gloss of CGI etc in cinema covers for the absence of good actual vehicles?

Nice swerve. But no cigar. What you actually posited was that
"Andrew Lloyd Webber is not credible if you actually like musical theatre and consider it a credible art form."

If all he could actually manage was one great tune per show, he'd still be writing great tunes, and so your claim that he has no credibility for anyone who likes musical theatre is seemingly based on nothing at all.



I have just taken a straw poll of three teen/early twenties who work here with some of the most outstanding tunes of R&H, Gershwin etc and sadly they've never heard of either most of the tunes or the composers. Maybe you meant they have entered the consciousness of old or ageing people? Oh and I doubt that sad state of affairs is limited to veterans like R&H, today's youth largely have no clue about any great music of the past, even references to the likes of Neil Young, Led Zeppelin, Lou Reed, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly or Aretha Franklin are like as not to be met with "Who?" and those who've heard the name could never name a tune.

But I digress. ALW is no Gershwin, but your put-down that he is not credible for anyone who likes musical theatre is just plain wrong.

[size=150Engelbert Humperdinck apparently not dead after all[/size
[url=http://newsthump.com/2012/03/02/engelbert-humperdinck-apparently-not-dead-after-all/Newsthump[/url

I've seen Tim Rice make up songs on the spot - he's very good. Isn't Lloyd Webber more of a composer of music than a lyricist?

Yes.



His influence and the manner in which he is hailed is out of all proportion to his talent and what he has written. I mentioned previously assorted composers who are not bad, but who are nowhere near as well known as the likes of Gershwin or R&H – partly because they might have penned a few good songs, but nowhere the numbers of many of R&H or others we've mentioned.

Take Jule Styne, for instance: there are a couple of stonkingly great show tunes in [iGypsy[/i – but most of us, even if we knew them and knew who'd composed them (and even if we knew who the lyricist was), would be hard pressed to think of more from that show – let alone any other Styne vehicle.

Same with Meredith Wilson and [iThe Music Man[/i, which probably has one stand-out tune that many people will know even without knowing where it came from ([iSeventy-six Trombones[/i).

But none of these got the equivalent of the state recognition that LW has received.



I also noted earlier, of the accusation of "snobbery": "... it will simply indicate just how far down the path of mediocrity and dross we have gone."

Dross and mediocrity – and an education system in which few young people are introduced to anything that's actually culturally demanding because it doesn't suit league tables and exams that are based on multiple choice.

I don't think it's remotely a question of something entering "the consciousness of old or ageing people" – there's not a person alive, and hasn't been for quite some time, who can remember Mozart when he was a mere child starting out (or even when he died), but the passing of something like 21 generations since his flesh-and-bone demise has not meant that his music has passed from consciousness.

And that hasn't meant that people listening to that music have not listened to and enjoyed (or not!) other music too; different types of music and bang-up-to-date music.



The way in which he is hailed and has been lauded and rewarded by the state is out of all proportion to his abilities. And it is not credible – or it certainly shouldn't be.

The vast majority of Elton John's most memorable songs have come from the era when Bernie Taupin was his collaborator. That doesn't mean that Taupin was solely, or even primarily responsible for the hits, just that they both produced their best work together.



I would have to disagree. I've seen Joseph a few times and actually played (in the band) in a local production of the show. I think there are a number of very well written pieces of music in the production that work well in the overall context of the storyline. 'Close Every Door' in particular is excellent. Of course (most of) the music in that show won't appeal outside of the theatre setting, as it's very specific to the storyline.

So this is really just a discussion about degree then?
If ALW is widely lauded then there has to be a fair amount of basis of credibility for it.
He has a knack, a talent, that he has got off his ass and developed. Skills and talents are pyramidal in my humble estimation, for every great performer there are a raft of lesser talents below and so on.
He is near the top of the pyramid in his field. Which is writing and producing musicals and creating a swathe of public support in his work. He's an entertainer, I don't suppose even he would claim to be exceptionally gifted.
But his work is very pleasant on the ear.
To dismiss him as not being a heavyweight is beside the point.
He's done it, what talent he has had, he has used it.
Which most people don't do, they hide their light under a bushel and then criticise those that have the balls to go out and achieve something.

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

Will anyone come to the rescue of a damsel in distress?

Anyway ...
Isn't the art of winning this miserable contest to put the song out in advance?
That German winning thing that won two years or so ago being a example.
It shouldn't be allowed.
God that German song was miserable!
Miserable is my word for today.

I accept that those are his 'big' songs - just as i have been quite clear, in this discussion, tha he has written memorable songs - but they're not close to even the 'lessor' songs of someone like Gershwin. And please note I haven't even mentioned one Stephen Sondhiem.

Honestly: [iI don't know how to love him[/i isn't even close to, say, something like [iCan't Help Loving' Thy Man[/i from a certain 1927 show by Rogers and Hart.

Not sure how you define SONGwriter? But, Lloyd Webber did not write the words to any of those.

So it's not accurate to say that he's not credible as a songwriter, just that you personally don't rate him as highly as you rate others.

Saw Aspects of Love - it was absolute Sh**e. Then to add insult to injury one of my then colleagues booked it to entertain European colleagues. I therefore had to therefore suffer (and I mean suffer) it twice!

Obviously. As I made clear when I mentioned his collaboration with the lyricist Tim Rice.

On one of the 3, but not the other two you mentioned.

I'm no fan of musicals, but to compare ALW to geniuses such as Gilbert & Sullivan is simply laughable.
I find almost everything I've heard by ALW shallow, somewhat twee, and generally annoying. Not as annoying as ALW himself, but that's a seperate argument.

G&S (although I suppose they're more 'comic opera' than 'musical') are in an entirely different class. Their works propel the plot, not just fill a gap with an excuse for some music. You find yourself concentrating on the song to help follow the plot, more than just enjoying the music.

For my tuppence.

I'd not agree that any of the R&H stuff is intrinsically more worthwhile than ALW though. Of a type, certainly, but not any more important musically.