That feels like shifting the blame to civil servants for what the Panorama documentary last night has clearly demonstrated, was a Govt decision; essential items of PPE were omitted from the pandemic stockpile, for financial reasons.

I don't disagree that generally, the public machinery moves frustratingly slowly in many instances - but I don't think this is a good example.

The MPs aren't on the ground moving stock around its like saying the army killing innocent citizens is the government's fault - somebody dies on an operating table is the government's fault. Did they make a decision on PPE when nobody had even heard of Covid - yes they did - which has proved to be the wrong one in hindsight. Getting PPE around the country is the responsibility of those people within the NHS charged with that responsibility - you can't shift that blame surely?

The furlough scheme and getting the money has worked brilliantly - not heard one of you on here going good job well done - no wonder people see your perspectives are well skewed.

Operation Cygnus told the Govt what they needed to do in the event of a pandemic - they chose not to do it for financial reasons. Their stockpile contained *no* gowns - not a single one; that's bordering on criminal negligence, yes?



The furlough scheme has worked well for some industries yes - but not all; and 'getting the money' has yet to be proven - the scheme opened for claims a week or so ago. If you mean the loan scheme - that clearly hasn't worked, as the banks (shock horror) were making it too difficult - so the Exchequer has had to step in and guarantee loans for smaller companies, to take the banks out of the equation.



What happened to a non-partisan discussion? I'm trying not to be skewed - I'm not suggesting anyone else would have done it better - I'm just dealing with facts before me.

So I will ask you this question - you are suggesting that given the chances of a pandemic were so great and the government should have acted and stockpiled PPE - I am correct in that yes? You as a social care provider looking after the most vulnerable in society to one of these incidents would have obviously done the thing you expected the government to do and stockpiled PPE - you didn't and I correct again - yes? So why didn't you stockpile PPE for the very same reason the government didn't because the money was better invested elsewhere. You are a private business charging £20-30k annually per customer and you cry wolf when the public sector don't get you out of the mess you have got yourself into - safeism gone mad.

I have issues in my business through the economic situation - the only person to blame is me.

On the furlough scheme - I have money out with 5 days of requesting it - so as far as I can see it works fine and many in my network have had the same experience - its quick and easy to access and the funds are flowing.

The banking is a different matter - banks are concerned that the loans will be repaid and that business that take out these loans will survive the crisis. The biggest part of the problem is most businesses can't provide the information the bank needs e.g. 2 years P&L. balance sheet and cashflow and business justification to support the loans. This is neither the government's nor the banks' problem - this is an issue of poorly managed businesses.

Wasn't one army commander quoted as being desperate to take over the distribution operation, and as being 'appalled' at NHS planning? I certainly don't 'blame' the NHS - it would be unfair to expect any distribution operation to expand from 200+ delivery locations to 58,000 overnight.


The government have stepped up and done a fantastic job financially. Not a sniff of gratitude or acknowledgement from most on here, some of whom I assume are grudgingly receiving furlough payments and possibly other means of assistance.

It cannot be overstated just how critical the furlough scheme is. Millions of us now have guaranteed income until at least June 30th, and who knows, it may be extended further if the lockdown continues. Most lenders are arranging mortgage holidays. So, for 3 months I'm only paying for shopping, utility bills and a few other small bills (and my daughter's birthday next month). I'll probably come out of this period better off despite a considerable drop in income. But will I have a job? That remains to be seen so I'll take what I can.

I acknowledge some businesses and individuals will inevitably fall through the cracks - there are millions of variables at play - but it cannot be denied the government have done a fantastic job in propping the country up financially. We'll all pay for it over time of course, but the alternative is unthinkable.

Is it all running perfectly smoothly? Not yet. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgive a few blips launching such huge and complex programmes in a matter of weeks.

Let's look at some of the achievements. I'm sure there are some I may have missed:
- The hugely impressive Nightingale hospitals - thankfully mostly not required yet.
- Increasing critical hospital capacity to the point we have over 3,000 spare critical care beds.
- A clearly defined four-stage strategy.
- For the most (while not ignoring the gaps) - providing medical equipment to cope with demand, including ventilators and PPE.
- The Job Retention (furlough) Scheme (later extended to include June).
- The Self-Employment Income Support Scheme.
- The 'Bounce Back Loan' for SMEs of up to £50,000.
- The Business Interruption Loan Scheme of up to £5m.
- The Corporate Financing Facility for larger businesses.
- Small business grant funding of £10,000.
- Guaranteeing loans where required.
- Grant funding of £25,000 for some retail, hospitality & leisure businesses.
- Deferred VAT payments.
- A 12 month business rate holiday for retail, hospitality, leisure & childcare businesses in England.
- £750 million cash grants fund for thousands of charities.

Fair points to a degree - just note for those of us (000's/10,000's/100,000's/millions?) who have fallen through the cracks and got nothing - am I expected to repay back the loans made out to people & companies in the future in my tax rate? Hardly fair. I was made redundant in January for which a got an amount that took me a smidgen above the threshold for UVC and this has been the worse time ever to look at the job market.. I will l be making a claim for UVC soon, obviously I'd much prefer to work as would everyone at the moment.

Only the same as me paying tax to educate and feed other people's kids etc. It seems that you are a socialist only when you are on the receiving end?

Paid all income taxes since Jan 1993 & I haven't been bailed out.. quite the opposite, on now and I will be on later

My point remains. You said its "hardly fair" that you should contribute to people in need, hardly a socialist attitude is it? Or is it only fair if you're getting a slice of the action?

Therein lies the issue with socialism - everyone is equal apart from those who are more equal than the rest. All those on here are happy to spout the rhetoric as long as their lifestyle is not impacted in ensuring others get a leg up. Socialism is about dragging everyone down - its the only way to achieve equality as there has to be a big number to support the ruling class.

What a ridiculous statement - and is a large part of the reason you're perceived as an amusing novelty act; you can't possibly say that, any more than I can say that *everyone* who supports the Tories is a right wing nutjob who cares more about their personal wealth than the lives of their fellow humans.

Socialism is about communal ownership and responsibility, about co-operating more than competing.

Other countries (like all of our northern European neighbours) achieve greater equality in terms of outcomes and opportunities without dragging everyone down, and indeed without full blooded socialism. Possibly by virtue of not having such rigid and institutionalised class systems or financialized economies.

I think nobody is more of a novelty act than you - nothing is ever your fault always somebody else's PPE is just the latest in your neat deflection technique - look in the mirror and seriously ask the question - can I really walk on the surface of the River Aire because that is how you come across

If you believe Maslow and most experts give weight to his writings - altruism is a pretty high up need - once your personal/family situation is secure.

That's the theory - the reality is the higher echelons of a Socialist society have a far better standard of living than the average - that has to be funded, the average standard of living would increase if the cost of running the state in a socialist environment wasn't so costly. Name me one Socialist country where the standard of living is even a little bit higher than an average capitalist/mixed economy where the wealth is generated by commercial activity e.g. Sweden/Germany/UK/Belgium/Switzerland etc.

Absolute nonsense.
So, the beloved NHS, brought in by a socialist government, mush to the despair of the despair of some right wing politicians, is paid for through a progressive tax system and is free at point of service.

Just take a glance accross the pond and see just how great the health system in the States is functioning at a time of desperate need.

Your interpretation of socialism is that it "drags everyone down" and yet, the principles are the exact opposite.
Whereas, the Tory view is look after yourself first and screw the rest.

It's quite refreshing at the moment to see all of the so called better off having to rely on the people much lower down the pecking order.
We would literally have ground to a halt without care workers, nurses, shop assistants, delivery drivers etc and yet, when we come through the other end, they will be the ones getting shat on (again).

I know that many, many, businesses are failing and will continue to do so, through absolutely no fault of their own, which is something that may hit Boris and Co at some point in the future but, as I said, it's refreshing to see those that are keeping the job running, finally getting some credit for well earned credit.

Maybe, society will become a little more fair at the end of all of this but, I wont hold my breath.

To be honest you could have stopped there. There’s no such thing... even where we get closer, like Cuba, we’re going to take a ‘no true Scotsman’ approach to the argument, just as you would with struggling/failing authoritarian right wing regimes. And it isn’t like the rest of the Caribbean is full of thriving economies.

Name me one purely capitalist country where the standard of living is even a little bit higher than an ‘average’ well-regulated country, where government plays a significant role in safeguarding the welfare of its citizens e.g. Sweden/Germany/UK/Belgium/Switzerland etc.

Singapore and the US, maybe. But even then, they are highly de-regulated rather than unregulated. We’re arguing along a spectrum... and we both want Sweden.

There’s so much to be positive about in the UK, historically and currently (as well as plenty of appalling stuff). I think the good comes more from stuff like the foundation of the co-operative movement... some others (straw man alert) might credit the playing fields of Eton. Not many of us see as desirable, a complete end to private property or to a self-defeating abandonment of all sense of shared societal responsibility in the pursuit of profit.

It'd be great if previously unskilled workers, who are now key workers and essential to the running of the country, get the recognition they deserve. And it would be great if the public stick to their new found unfavourable views of the hypocritical billionaire classes, demanding handouts while they sit on piles of cash on their islands.

Personally, I think we'll see those at the top making sure those at the bottom pay for it, and we'll carry on with the whole austerity illusion, just under a Boris rebrand, and accompanied by a catchy 3 word slogan. I'll go with a period of 'restraint', and the sell will be "Squeeze for Britain". It's catchy, it's fun, it appeals to the war loving 'blitz spirit' crowd, despite the fact it will be miserable for millions. I can just see Bozo now, his hand in that trademark 'clenched fist with thumb over the top', "we're going to 'Squeeze for Britain' during this period of restraint, and I promise each and every one of you - it will be worth it".

No surprise to me that your response is absolute nonsense - with no reference to the original argument.

FYI - plenty of things are my fault; the failings of the Govt are not however. And for the record (for the third time) neither I or any other private provider is looking for PPE handouts - I'm quite happy to pay the market rate, as I've always done. But since we didn't have access to the Operation Cygnus findings, we didn't stockpile it; the Govt did have access, but still didn't stockpile it - that's my issue.

As for the socialist country tripe - none exists in the way you're describing it, and I don't know a single socialist who either wants or advocates that; in general, we just want fairness, equality of opportunity and a society that values more than shareholder dividends and impossible, endless growth. Plenty of those exist, as well you know.

OK name me a country where Socialist principles dominate where the average prosperity of its population is better than those where Capitalism drives the agenda?

Can I have Social Democracy and use of median measures of prosperity?

Either you are being deliberately obtuse to again deflect but there was plenty in the press about a pandemic being the next great frontier - Gates has been talking about for years. So as clever a fellow as you think you are I would have thought taking all the evidence into account would lead you to a simple conclusion - if this happens, who is going to suffer - predominantly your customers. You being as clever as you think you are would have invested in PPE for when this might happen. Of course you wouldn't have done because that is not a good use of capital now is it. You expected the government to have warehouses full of this stuff just in case - so monies that could have been spent on hip replacements etc can't because its all tied up in PPE - come on get real.

In my life I have not experienced any lack of opportunity - I can from a back to back with an outside toilet in Bradford, I went to Wyke Manor - possibly the worst comprehensive in the Bradford area, I didn't go to university and I have made a pretty good fist life and there are many who have come from worst than me and have done far better than me - to say there is a lack of fairness/opportunity/equality is rubbish - life is what you make of it, I have found the harder I work the bigger the opportunity.

Your comment about profit is an interesting one - endless growth improves the overall standard of living of the citizens - it is no surprise that the overall living standard of the world's population has improved beyond all recognition since the start of the industrial revolution? If you look at all those "new countries" coming into the EU that need supporting they are all those that adopted a hard line socialist dogma.

You were lucky to have a back to back....There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road!

You are a very strange guy - hopefully you will be able to get the help you need when the mental health side of the NHS gets back into full swing

You were lucky, we could only dream of a shoebox!
There were 1000 of us and We had to live in a puddle in the gutter at the side of the road, we would have loved a shoebox!