Such personal choices are often roundly condemned, and, in almost every case, they are condemned without any effort being made to speak to the party concerned in order for them to defend themselves.

Like gay marriage for example?

Your right, the modern soldier does enlist out of choice. However, we would be totally f'cked if nobody volunteered, like it or not we need the armed forces, we might not agree with whatever conflict they are engaged in at any given time but without them we would be bolloxed and a target for anyone who fancied a pop at us. Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and contributions to service charities are the same and while I wear one with pride, I respect others right not to wear them. As for the money raised not making a blind bit of difference to those who have died in conscripted wars, of course it doesn't, but it does make a hell of a difference to the many seriously injured servicemen and women (and families) who are currently getting shafted by the current (and preceding) government. The Americans woke up to treating their veterans with some respect after the scandals of the Vietnam vets were highlighted and maybe of we did the same as a country, we might not need to buy poppies to raise money in the future.

Its his right, but perhaps someone might like to sit him down and explain what remembrance day is actually about, there are many a dead Irishman lying in foreign fields after fighting against genuine tyranny over the last hundred years or so.

I'm sat watching Grand Slam Darts on Sky Sports right now.
Half the players are wearing poppies and half of them aren't.
There'll be no bollox in the papers about it tomorrow though will there?

Sorry, are you talking about advocates of gay marriage or those who oppose it? Or are you simply intent on following me around the forum trying to disrupt the discussion?

and many ex servicemen being supported for helping to maintain tyranny around the World by stopping countries having IndependenceIndonesia, Kenya, Malaya, Aden etc etc.

The issue about poppy day and why it is now de rigeur to have one is that 10 years ago it was very much about WW1 and WW2.

It was about the evils of war.

Now it is about , " our troops", , " our brave heroes in Afghanistan". The wearing of the poppy is now not about remembering those who have died but about those who are fighting and is used to drum up nationalistic support for much less popular wars than WW2 was.

We'd also be f***ed if we didn't have nurses/doctors/teachers/bus drivers/train drivers/etc volunteering too.....The fact is that the modern day soldier volunteers and while they do an admirable job, they shouldn't be hoisted onto some pedestal as some sort of martyr.

By all means, remember the fallen of ALL wars, but don't make the general public feel guilty for being cynical about some of the conflicts that our forces are embroiled in.

Seconded.

I do not often wear a poppy. I have always seen it as something that has been hijacked by the establishment to glorify war. I know that's not what it is supposed to be about but that's how it has usually seemed to me.

Find out which unit they were from and ping the CO an e mail. It will probably achieve more than moaning on RL Fans.

Further, go and post the same complaint on the Army Rumours Service. Be sure to link us to the thread.

It doesn't matter what idiots try and hijack it, the poppy is about remembering fallen servicemen and women (and for the other emergency services as well) and those who choose to wear it should try and remember this, rather than not wear one for any other reason.

Whilst it is personal choice to wear or not wear a poppy, I don't think doing something for a few days a year in support of those who give their lives so that we have said personal choice is such a hard ship.

Most of those claiming it as personal choice would be the first to moan if we were governed like places such as China and Korea.

Well ya learns something new every day.



Personally, I dislike a lot of aspects about how it's presented these days – the seeming competitiveness to wear one earlier than ever or bigger than anyone else; launching appeals with pop stars seems at odds with remembering war dead ... etc.

So while I do choose to buy and wear one, it is done late and only for a day or two. And while I don't personally choose to buy a white poppy because I do not personally believe that, however nice, pacifism is always possible (see 1939), I do personally think of the red poppy as representing all the war dead, and not simply those from one side.

But those are my choices.

Just seen: [url=http://alt.adrianshort.co.uk/blog/2011/11/10/remembering-remembrance/there's a good piece here.[/url

Oh, and now seen [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9671394/Man-arrested-for-posting-image-of-burning-poppy-on-Twitter.htmlthis[/url. Man arrested for posting image of burning poppy (a paper one) online.

That offends me. Can we have the Telegraph editor and the Kent Chief Constable arrested too?

I don't wear a poppy and never have done.

I can understand why he's been arrested.

I don't know why anyone want to burn anything to offend someone else and I can't believe anybodys really offended.

it's historical.

Burning things that one finds 'offensive' goes back centuries, to witches and heretics and goodness knows what else.

In more recent times, the burning of books and art on Bebelplatz in 1933 was effectively a statement of cutting away the German intelligentsia.

It's been repeated on smaller scales many time since – [iThe Satanic Verses[/i, religious books, even [iHarry Potter[/i – only recently some people decided to burn copies of [i50 Shades of Grey[/i. And then there's flags. Although on a level, I personally feel 'offended' when people burn books, because attacking thoughts and ideas etc in such a way is crass and because they never seem to remember 1933 and what that meant, of care.

And people get offended by flags being burnt, because (presumably) they symbolise something that they hold dear, and they take the burning of such a symbol as indicative of a more meaningful attack.

So I can understand why someone would burn a poppy and I can understand why someone else would be offended by it.

But it all rather boils down to nobody having any right not to be offended – and this arrest seems to be suggesting that some people do have a right not to be offended. Seems utterly bonkers to me.

I buy a poppy in the week before the 11th and I wear it ... I don't see it as a glorification of war, nor does it mean that I support wars in Iraq etc. ... soldiers can't and don't choose which conflicts they are sent to, they do their duty... my poppy is a remembrance and a mark of respect.

Anyone who doesn't do what I do has a perfect right to not do so.
Anyone who wants to burn a poppy has a perfect right to do so.

Aren't these freedoms some of the things that people actually died for?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Mine too.



I think you may be confusing having these freedoms, with holding certain views. The irony of this particular situation is that if someone chooses to go up to forces personnel selling poppies, but not be wearing or buy a poppy for himself, it is hardly unexpected that the sellers will have a certain viewpoint.

But because millions died so we can all have these freedoms, they point which somehow has managed to escape so many on this thread is that the soldiers selling the poppies also have freedoms, and those include giving you the benefit of their opinions. What the OP seems to be after, encouraged by some surprising supporters, is a situation where he is free to make whatever statement he is making by declining to wear a poppy, but wishes any criticism or disagreement with him exercising that freedom to be silenced. Well, I've got news for you; the poppy sellers have the same rights and freedoms to express views and opinions, within the law, as anyone else, and I heartily endorse them giving him a piece of their mind. If you can't accept criticism, or are unwilling to debate or to hear contrary viewpoints, don't engage with people who are likely to hold them.

Indeed, a bit like the OP ramming his sanctamonious views of religion, gay marriage etc. down other people's necks, and then refusing point blank to justify why his beliefe in fairy stories is any more or less valid than serving forces personnel believing that we should wear poppies as a mark of respect.

Personally, I wish the squaddie had pistol whipped the resident bigot.

Completely agree.



But that's another ball game, isn't it?