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Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"Aside from whether the others will accept formally ceding control of their economies to Germany (even if they've already done so in practice), there is this suggestion that the German economy is going to soften later this year, and if this happens then the German people may get even more tectchy than they already are, and there are plenty who are not keen on Merkel repeatedly handing over their money to countries out of step with the German work ethic.'"
One thing I find interesting is that people often talk about the famous German work ethic but they work fewer hours than we do, the EU average weekly hours worked per worker is 37.4, Germany is 35.6 and the UK is 36.3. This includes part time and full time workers, if you view it just by full time then the EU average is 41.6, Germany is 42 and the UK is 42.7. On both counts the longest hours worked in Europe are in Greece although Greece has a high unemployment rate so that partly explains that one.
Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark.
Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive...
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours |
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Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"Aside from whether the others will accept formally ceding control of their economies to Germany (even if they've already done so in practice), there is this suggestion that the German economy is going to soften later this year, and if this happens then the German people may get even more tectchy than they already are, and there are plenty who are not keen on Merkel repeatedly handing over their money to countries out of step with the German work ethic.'"
One thing I find interesting is that people often talk about the famous German work ethic but they work fewer hours than we do, the EU average weekly hours worked per worker is 37.4, Germany is 35.6 and the UK is 36.3. This includes part time and full time workers, if you view it just by full time then the EU average is 41.6, Germany is 42 and the UK is 42.7. On both counts the longest hours worked in Europe are in Greece although Greece has a high unemployment rate so that partly explains that one.
Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark.
Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive...
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours | |
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| Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"... Talk of human rights, meat in sausages or cucumbers are p.iss weak red herrings ...'"
The tone of those posts went a bit 'woosh', didn't they?
Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"... corruption so deep and widespread nobody even bothers to bat an eyelid at it any longer...'"
Well indeed. All the corruption in the UK can quite clearly be blamed on the EU. |
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[url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e74ceba-afd2-11e1-a025-00144feabdc0.htmlFar more interesting – and less hysterical – from the [iFT[/i.[/url
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| Quote ="Mintball"[url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e74ceba-afd2-11e1-a025-00144feabdc0.htmlFar more interesting – and less hysterical – from the [iFT[/i.[/url'"
There was nothing hysterical about the article. You seem to have to register to see the FT one. |
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It is true, though, that so unfeasibly corrupt and incompetent is the EU that auditors have point blank refused to sign off its accounts, for about the 100th year running, due to improbable gazillions being unaccounted for. The missing figure is, you may not be surprised to hear, always a blck hole, and never an unexplained huge surplus.
In ANY other organisation this would have led to a lot of extremely hefty jail terms many years ago, but for some reason, the annual refusal to sign off the accounts, which should be one of the world's biggest scandals given the money gone adrift, is almost universally ignored.
So that's alright then.
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| Quote ="Dally"... You seem to have to register to see the FT one.'"
Then register. I'll make a change from the comics you usually link to. |
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I like the fact that the cityam article pulls rank by saying FA Hayek was more distinguished than Krugman, so he must be right.
I respond by saying Keynes was more distinguished than Hayek, so anything Hayek says is superceded by Keynes.
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| Quote ="Mintball"The tone of those posts went a bit 'woosh', didn't they?
Well indeed. All the corruption in the UK can quite clearly be blamed on the EU.'"
I wasn't taking those posts seriously, I don't even take the subjects seriously, there are pro-EU myths and there are anti-EU myths, people take their pick as they see fit.
And talking about corruption in the UK is a complete diversion tactic, it doesn't make it better, the issue is we give billions in net contribution to an organisation that is infamous for pork barrel politics, corruption and opaque financial management. If you ditch the political project you can still have many of the social and economic strands (that you may or may not agree with), because they exist outside of this particularly expensive padded box. |
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| Quote ="Him"The problem is the Germans aren't propping it up, they're trying to get everyone else to prop it up. They want the benefits (better for German exports) but don't want the costs (helping out the poorer areas). The Euro would work either if it was restricted to nations of similar size economies or if (like in nations outside the Euro) the rich areas subsidise the weak. Since the Germans don't appear to want either, it won't work.
As for the EU, I'm sure there is plenty of unnecessary and wasteful expenditure, but I'm of the school that you attempt to make something better before chucking it away entirely. I don't see why those parts can't be controlled with effective leadership (that does not include btching from the sidelines with no proposals only complaints).
A big problem for the EU is that no one understands how it works. It needs simplifying and far greater transparency introduced. People are suspicious of things they don't understand. If there was greater transparency there would be greater understanding and therefore greater pressure brought to bear upon our European representatives. People barely know who their MP is but I think people at least know if theyre in a Tory or Labour constituency. Without looking, I have no idea who, or what party my regions' MEP's are from or even how many there are. And I'm at least somewhat interested in politics.'"
You dont need to know who your MEP is, they dont make the decisions. And better leadership is only possible if the various institutions and EU mechanisms allow for it, which they dont.
The EU has just become too big and unwieldy. But how do you simplify it? Or make it more transparent? Its easy to say that, they're motherhood and apple pie statements, but the thing's just become too complex. Unravelling it is virtually impossible because any changes that are made will have an adverse effect on at least one member state. Its got a huge level of inbuilt inertia.
The only way that they'll resolve the problems of the Euro is to move to much greater financial and political integration. But who really wants that? |
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Quote ="sally cinnamon"Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark.
Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive...
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours'"
Also worth noting pay restraint amongst German workers which is behind some of that productivity.
The structure of their economy is different to say the UK or the basket cases, I think it's very interesting but off on a tangent. |
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Quote ="sally cinnamon"Germany's strength comes from its high productivity, 23.7% higher than the EU average, whereas we are 7.2% higher than the EU average, Greece is 23.7% lower than the EU average, and also its export advantage being able to export quality goods at cheap price because it has an undervalued exchange rate by being in the Euro rather than the exchange rate they would have in the Deutschmark.
Germany has quite good pensions, employment rights and social welfare, the right wingers often hold Germany up as a benchmark of austerity but they have achieved their high levels of productivity through strong state investment in education and infrastructure and also support for industry, it is not through cutting taxes to the rich to the lowest possible level to attract investment and having low wages and no working rights to make them competitive...
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... king-hours'"
Also worth noting pay restraint amongst German workers which is behind some of that productivity.
The structure of their economy is different to say the UK or the basket cases, I think it's very interesting but off on a tangent. | |
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"I like the fact that the cityam article pulls rank by saying FA Hayek was more distinguished than Krugman, so he must be right.
I respond by saying Keynes was more distinguished than Hayek, so anything Hayek says is [usuperceded[/u by Keynes.
'"
See my comment on the football decision thread. |
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| Quote ="Him"The problem is the Germans aren't propping it up, they're trying to get everyone else to prop it up. They want the benefits (better for German exports) but don't want the costs (helping out the poorer areas). The Euro would work either if it was restricted to nations of similar size economies or if (like in nations outside the Euro) the rich areas subsidise the weak. Since the Germans don't appear to want either, it won't work. ...'"
It's a question of political will and the backing of the electorate.
Germany managed to drag a post-communist East Germany into the the late 20th century but I think you're right in that they won't want fiscal union with (or more bail-outs for) non-German countries whose economies are less vibrant than their own.
But let's not forget that it wasn't the basic notion of the Euro that caused the Eurozone mess.
It was down to
a) Putting a common currency ahead of fiscal union (into which fiscal union I would include the invention of Euro bonds) in the calendar of events.
b) Letting Greece into the Euro with incredibly dodgy data about the size of their deficit.
c) The banking crisis !!
i.e. We must absolutely not forget that our own quantitative easing and all the rest of it (that we have been able to do and the Greeks can't) wouldn't have been needed if the banking crisis hadn't happened. |
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| Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"Also worth noting pay restraint amongst German workers which is behind some of that productivity.
The structure of their economy is different to say the UK or the basket cases, I think it's very interesting but off on a tangent.'"
They don't seem to have the same income gap in Germany as we do over here, do they? |
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"It's a question of political will and the backing of the electorate.
Germany managed to drag a post-communist East Germany into the the late 20th century but I think you're right in that they won't want fiscal union with (or more bail-outs for) non-German countries whose economies are less vibrant than their own.
But let's not forget that it wasn't the basic notion of the Euro that caused the Eurozone mess.
It was down to
a) Putting a common currency ahead of fiscal union (into which fiscal union I would include the invention of Euro bonds) in the calendar of events.
b) Letting Greece into the Euro with incredibly dodgy data about the size of their deficit.
c) The banking crisis !!
i.e. We must absolutely not forget that our own quantitative easing and all the rest of it (that we have been able to do and the Greeks can't) wouldn't have been needed if the banking crisis hadn't happened.'"
It's been obvious for years that Europeans have been living above their productive means.
a. But that's the whole point it was. The politicians knew they had no popular mandate but thought they'd steam ahead anyway. I have doubts that there is sufficient common culture to allow a political and fiscal union to succeed in any case. That would require long-term subsidies to peoples of differeing cultures and outlooks and / or mass migration from poorer to richer areas. I think it would end in bloodshed. Always have.
b. Not just Greece. Even Germany didn't meet the criteria! I think only Luxembourg did.
c. The banking crisis is a debt crisis, ultimately cause by politicians, people living above their means and in the case of fringe areas of the EU the falwed Euro project, so we go back to the start! |
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| Quote ="Dally"It's been obvious for years that Europeans have been living above their productive means...'"
On the basis that, on another thread, you have said that you have no savings, presumably you were one of those doing this. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"On the basis that, on another thread, you have said that you have no savings, presumably you were one of those doing this.'"
No. I have no material debts either. I have net assets of a reasonable sum. |
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| Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"
There is no real reason for the UK not to leave the EU and negotiate a free trade agreement 1) tit for tat customs spats do neither side any good (particularly as the UK runs a trade deficit with rest of EU), and 2) this is the era of of WTA and even the EU has to work with that. These are very heavy realpolitik counterbalance to worries about Nissan style investment leaving if we turn off the taps. If the UK is still part of a free trade zone, and is more competitive as a result, and they've already sunk billions in costs then it's unlikely. What business (like Nissan etc) doesn't like is uncertainty, but that is tough luck anywhere at the moment.'"
To negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU (as Norway has done) means you have to accept EU regulations. In that sense you are een worse off because being outside the EU you have no influence at all on those regulations. The idea a FTA with the EU would give us the trade links we have now minus us having to be part of it with all that entails is simplistic wishful thinking.
Quote Talk of human rights, meat in sausages or cucumbers are p.iss weak red herrings, they are not dependent on the wider EU project with its bureaucracies, talking shops and corruption so deep and widespread nobody even bothers to bat an eyelid at it any longer. You can have institutions managing international trade regimes, providing aid to poor European countires, or promoting universal human rights standards, you don't need the trappings and cost of the EU for all that, in fact many such organisations already exist outside the EU. Trade does exist without the EU, and human rights actually existed in Britain before the Human Rights Act even if it wasn't around to justify a range of undesirable actions subsequently garishly splashed across the viewspapers, an expensive political integration project is not a pre-requisite for any of these things.'"
The Human Rights Act has nothing to do with the EU because it relates to the International Convention of Human Rights which is not run by an EU institution and never has been. All the act does is clarify the relationship between UK Human Rights law and our countries obligations under the Convention. If we left the EU the Human Rights Act is one thing that simply would not change because it is nothing to do with the EU.
Quote Now I appreciate all this realpolitik s.hit may not be as cuddly as 27 nations all proudly hugging each other under a flag of peace blah blah, but it's a moot point now anyway, the EU has already overstretched itself, it's pulling itself apart trying to maintain a common currency that doesn't work for half of it's members. If the Euro fails then what is the point of ever greater integration? The Germans are only really propping the whole thing up because their banks are so heavily exposed to the banks in weak economies (particularly Spain) that they'll have a banking meltdown if they exit. Afterall who will pay the German banks back what they lent to banks in Spain etc if the German people don't stump up the cash to keep the circle intact? Everyone is worried about a flight of capital out of the weaker economies into Germany if one of them exits, but what happens when Germany's banks start to take hits as a result of their losses from an exit? Gotta keep kicking that can along...'"
The Euro has failed or is failing because it was never just about economics but was driven as much by politics. The German's could probably weather a Greek exit but they would then face a stronger Euro and that may then force Ireland, Spain and Portugal (maybe even Italy) into trouble and possibly out.
Before you know where you are you end up with a Eurozone of just the big economies and they don't want that either. I think people underestimate the political will to maintain the Euro even with the likes of Greece in it. |
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| Quote ="DaveO"
Before you know where you are you end up with a Eurozone of just the big economies and they don't want that either. I think people underestimate the political will to maintain the Euro even with the likes of Greece in it.'"
I don't think people do under-estimate the political will to maintain it. That political will is the whole problem. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"They don't seem to have the same income gap in Germany as we do over here, do they?'"
In the UK we have pay restraint for low and middle earners. The top earners however see their pay exploding, this is because they 'need to attract the best'.
And also apparently it will trickle down lol. |
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"In the UK we have pay restraint for low and middle earners. The top earners however see their pay exploding, this is because they 'need to attract the best'.
And also apparently it will trickle down lol.'"
Yes, there are more players from the English premier league in Euro 2012 than from any other league and England are the only team were all the players play at home. That strongly suggests pay rates are disproprtionately high here - presumably to attract the 'best' talent like Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, etc. It's clear we've all started to ear alot more since second rate footballers in the England squad (aka as talented individuals) have been earning millions. |
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| Quote ="Dally"Yes, there are more players from the English premier league in Euro 2012 than from any other league and England are the only team were all the players play at home. That strongly suggests pay rates are disproprtionately high here - presumably to attract the 'best' talent like Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, etc. It's clear we've all started to ear alot more since second rate footballers in the England squad (aka as talented individuals) have been earning millions.'"
Nowt to do with the fact that we just produce [is[/ihit soccer players then? |
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The two are pretty much the same thing Coddy. If we could produce world class players then we'd not need to import foreign superstars.
See Super League for further details.
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| Quote ="Scooter Nik"The two are pretty much the same thing Coddy. If we could produce world class players then we'd not need to import foreign superstars.
See Super League for further details.'"
Without wishing to stray too far into VT territory, I have to laugh at those who think the solution to a lack of talent in SL is to reduce the number of teams playing in the comp. Completely ignoring the fact that the real solution is to increase and then nurture the available pool of players to select from. Austerity eh? |
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I'm entirely on your side on that one.
Obviously the fewer players we have would lead to the talent in the country being concentrated into those few players rather than each player having their own. Makes perfect sense.
Anyway.......
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