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On the Hillsborough Independent Panel there was the Bishop of Liverpool, Peter Scruton, author of Hillsborough: The Truth and Kate Jones, a producer on McGovern's Hillsborough documentary.
Raju Bhatt had led legal action against South Yorkshire Police over the miners strike.
Peter Sissons was born and raised in Liverpool.
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"On the Hillsborough Independent Panel there was the Bishop of Liverpool, Peter Scruton, author of Hillsborough: The Truth and Kate Jones, a producer on McGovern's Hillsborough documentary.
Raju Bhatt had led legal action against South Yorkshire Police over the miners strike.
Peter Sissons was born and raised in Liverpool.'"
Perhaps you should write to the Times and the Prime Minister to complain about your perception of bias, instead of writing on a pretty insignificant internet message board? |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"... Whether you're here in a professional capacity or not, any journalist with a working brain should know that Patnick never said he passed off rumour as fact. The fact that you cannot make that distinction quickly and easily right now suggests that you are a shoddy journalist, and shows just why journalism in the UK is screwed.'"
You clearly wouldn't recognise "a working brain" if one got up and smacked across the chops, sunny Jim.
If he reported something to a news agency that he didn't believe was factually correct (ie a fact/facts), then he deserves even more anger.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"On the Hillsborough Independent Panel there was the Bishop of Liverpool, Peter Scruton, author of Hillsborough: The Truth and Kate Jones, a producer on McGovern's Hillsborough documentary.
Raju Bhatt had led legal action against South Yorkshire Police over the miners strike.
Peter Sissons was born and raised in Liverpool.'"
Oh. So now you're switching tack to try to claim the whole thing was biased. 
Presumably the retired police chief and the former Met Police information expert and the doctor were just token appointees, eh? Sat back and just let those biased Scousers run the whole show, ignoring facts and evidence? |
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| Quote ="Mintball"
If he reported something to a news agency that he didn't believe was factually correct (ie a fact/facts), then he deserves even more anger.
'"
His submission said he had no reason not to believe the officers. |
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| Quote ="Dally"His submission said he had no reason not to believe the officers.'"
Ergo he passed it on – as fact. |
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[url=http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/mackenzie-hillsborough-lies/2697'Why Kelvin MacKenzie won't tell the truth.'[/url
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Why Kelvin MacKenzie won't tell the truth.
Why won’t MacKenzie tell us ‘the truth’ about Hillsborough?
Can you tell the difference between those two sentences?
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| Quote ="Mintball"Ergo he passed it on – as fact.'"
You make conclusions as accurately as you quote a headline.
Saying he believed the officers version of events when they told them to him doesn't mean he reported what they said as fact. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"Ergo he passed it on – as fact.'"
Absolutely not. He also said senior officers had said he should take the comments with a pinch of salt and ended by saying the enquiry could no doubt identify the officers concerned and question them.
So, his submission was not fact it was relating what he was told. No more, no less.
Can you please clarify what you are trying to read into it and whether your interpretation is pure speculation or what? |
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Why bother passing on information which could not easily be verified and was already thought suspect/unreliable by senior officers? I think it's an irresponsible thing for someone in his position to do.
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"On the Hillsborough Independent Panel there was the Bishop of Liverpool, Peter Scruton, author of Hillsborough: The Truth and Kate Jones, a producer on McGovern's Hillsborough documentary.
Raju Bhatt had led legal action against South Yorkshire Police over the miners strike.
Peter Sissons was born and raised in Liverpool.'"
and??? |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"You make conclusions as accurately as you quote a headline.
Saying he believed the officers version of events when they told them to him doesn't mean he reported what they said as fact. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.'"
To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.
Together with trying to smear the panel as biased. |
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Quote ="Mintball"To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.'"
Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.
Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.
But here is the White's News Agency report which MacKenzie used: hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 010001.pdf
Quote Last night, Sheffield Tory MP, Irvine Patnick, backed up police claims that Liverpool fans attacked and urinated on them as they tended the injured and dying.
He said: I spoke to many policemen in the makeshift mortuary aftenwards. They told me they were hampered, harassed, punched, kicked and urinated on by Liverpool fans. I have kept quiet about this because I did not want to inflame a delicate situation.
But it is a fact that these are the stories they told me and they had no reason to lie, I saw the bruising on their bodies and the state they were in and there is no doubt in my mind it is true,
All this happened to them and yet they carried on doing their job trying to save lives and now they are being blamed,
One important question that must be answered is what part alcohol played in this whole tragic business'.'"
So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers.
Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error.
Quote Together with trying to smear the panel as biased.'"
I never made any comment over whether they were biased.
Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough.
I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable.
I think that if a panel who found that there was misbehaviour by some Liverpool fans, and that panel included someone who had previously published a critical analysis of some LFC supporters, you would be screaming about bias. |
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Quote ="Mintball"To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.'"
Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.
Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.
But here is the White's News Agency report which MacKenzie used: hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 010001.pdf
Quote Last night, Sheffield Tory MP, Irvine Patnick, backed up police claims that Liverpool fans attacked and urinated on them as they tended the injured and dying.
He said: I spoke to many policemen in the makeshift mortuary aftenwards. They told me they were hampered, harassed, punched, kicked and urinated on by Liverpool fans. I have kept quiet about this because I did not want to inflame a delicate situation.
But it is a fact that these are the stories they told me and they had no reason to lie, I saw the bruising on their bodies and the state they were in and there is no doubt in my mind it is true,
All this happened to them and yet they carried on doing their job trying to save lives and now they are being blamed,
One important question that must be answered is what part alcohol played in this whole tragic business'.'"
So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers.
Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error.
Quote Together with trying to smear the panel as biased.'"
I never made any comment over whether they were biased.
Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough.
I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable.
I think that if a panel who found that there was misbehaviour by some Liverpool fans, and that panel included someone who had previously published a critical analysis of some LFC supporters, you would be screaming about bias. | |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.'"
Yes. He believed that was he was told was the truth. In other words, factually accurate. In other words, facts.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.'"
If you believe something to be "the truth", then you do not disbelieve it. He even said, in the quote you posted: "there is no doubt in my mind it is true". In other words, he accepted what he had been told as facts – and passed it on as such.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers...'"
Nobody has suggested otherwise. He was not at the match. He was told things by police officers. He believed that what they had told him was "the truth". He passed on what he had heard to the agency.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error...'"
So, lots of reasons – except the -covering one.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"I never made any comment over whether they were biased...'"
You didn't need to. What you posted stated it for you, quite clearly.
Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough...'"
Strange that you don't suggest that a retired senior policeman would have no place on an independent panel, given the circumstances. Of course, if you believe the job they did was affected negatively by such things, you'll be able to provide the proof, instead of just making snide, cowardly hints.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable...'"
So the results were fixed to avoid any awkwardness. Oh pur-leese.
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Considering the staggering amount of information now out that both vindicates and condens various bodies and individuals on many levels is this thread really getting detailed page after page with someone trying to defence in someway one of them?
I'd also take that prick out the title as a more general discussion on Hillsborough - THE TRUTH!
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| Quote ="Mintball"So, lots of reasons – except the -covering one.'"
Patnick said the allegations were from front line cops. Why do they need to cover their s?
Quote Of course, if you believe the job they did was affected negatively by such things, you'll be able to provide the proof, instead of just making snide, cowardly hints.'"
Like you provided the proof of Patnick deserving to be stripped of his knighthood? |
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Seems to me Patnick's importance was that he was an early "witness" independent of the police. His submission reports what he did / was told and his opinion on what he was told. He is not stating what he heard was fact. Fact.
It seems to me that those wishing to strip him of titles, etc are conspiracy theorists who must therefore be of the opinion that his submission was deliberately slanted as part of some elaboraate cover up? Perhaps they feel his was leaned on / encouraged by ministers? If they do, can they please provide some evidence, say what they believe or stop sniping?
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On the night of the Hillsborough disaster Irvine Patnick believed what he had been told by a few officers that they had personally been abused, witnessed abuse of dead bodies and been hampered in their efforts by violent fans.
After the Hillsborough Independent Panel Patnick seems to have accepted that those officers were lying to him.
Why does Patnick now believe that those allegations were lies?
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Documentary about Hillsborough currently on Channel 5.
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| Quote ="Dally"Documentary about Hillsborough currently on Channel 5.'"
Did you learn anything? |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Patnick said the allegations were from front line cops. Why do they need to cover their s?
'"
Possibly to deflect attention away from the fact that they were mostly clueless idiots?
No matter what your jaundiced views of Liverpool supporters, you conveniently ignore what can only amount to institutionalised co-ercion and corruption, albeit from those in senior posts but certainly aided and abetted by the lower ranks.
What has emerged is a culture of lying and obfuscation. From the senior police officers in charge on the day, via the sheer ignorance of the FA, the ineptitude of South Yorkshire's other emergency services, politically-motivated briefings to the press, through to the appointment of a patsy of a coroner.
You have managed to come across on this thread as a very bitter Man U supporter, whose hatred of Liverpool FC and its supporters prevents you from actually taking an balanced view of the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel |
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| Quote ="WIZEB"Did you learn anything?'"
No - just the usual stuff being recycled. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"[url=http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/mackenzie-hillsborough-lies/2697'Why Kelvin MacKenzie won't tell the truth.'[/url'" Oh how utterly delicious.
'Oh don't do that Alex!' yes it isn't nice is it Kelvin |
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Dunno if this has been covered and I'm on my phone so it's hard to check, but did anyone see McKenzie being doorstepped by a C4 News journalist the other day? He didn't enjoy his own medicine one jot. Someone should invade his personal space like thst every day until he dies or leaves the country. Most gratifying.
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| Quote ="Rock God X"Dunno if this has been covered and I'm on my phone so it's hard to check, but did anyone see McKenzie being doorstepped by a C4 News journalist the other day? He didn't enjoy his own medicine one jot. Someone should invade his personal space like thst every day until he dies or leaves the country. Most gratifying.'"
Minty put it on this thread.
It's class. 
I like the ''have you still got a job'' comment.
Prick still thinks he's important. |
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