The day I gain your confidence is the day I really start worrying.

So Mugwump of you had to be devils advocate and argue the positives of the EU what would they be?

Personally i can freely admit there are many things i have agreed with and have no issue with but democracy is sacrosanct and trumps all. Even if it is an illusion of democracy, I'd rather live in that than a blatant dictatorship.

Democracy is just another shell game. Whilst these days its virtues are held to be self-evident what most people don't realise is this idea is a relatively new phenomenon.

Anyone who has read the works of Plato, Aristotle, Thucydides (especially) etc. knows that the Greeks very quickly realised that Democracy is a mug's game which is wide open to demagoguery and oligarchy. Most of the Greek city states flat out REFUSED to become democratic and literally had it forced upon them at the tip of an Athenian spear.

If Democracy was such a great thing why is it Athens lay in ruins soon after instituting it? Why is it Plato (widely considered the greatest philosopher who ever lived) had nary a good word to say about it and blamed it for the death of his hero, Socrates?

Look back through history and you'll find far kinder things said about the Spartan political system. Indeed, the Spartan model was considered preferable right up to the arrival of Hitler.

I'm not saying I concur with this opinion, BTW. I'm just pointing out.

The word you should really be looking for is "Freedom". Without wishing to get into a very long and complicated discussion about the nature of "Freedom" what I will say is that Democracy and Freedom are NOT the same thing.

Take the parliamentary system. The notion that someone can represent YOUR interests in addition to the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker as well as BAE systems down the road is patently absurd. Representative democracy was perhaps a good idea when it took a week to travel down to London and back via carriage. But this is the Information Age we are living in. When information travels at the speed of light there is no need for any MPs. We could all vote electronically and that would be a much fairer system and certainly more representative.

What are the "positives" of the EU? It's a tough question because I am not part of the class of people the EU was created primarily to benefit. The truth is you and I are practically irrelevant to any decision which will come out of this vote.

As long as we remain at each other's throats over non-issues such as this we will have no say in our future. It reminds me of endless squabbles I've heard between ostensible "Labour" and "Tory" supporters who are too stupid to see that for a very long time now (perhaps it's always been this way in terms of trend) the [iworst government is always the next one (or at least for those people who are part of the "99%"icon_wink.gif.[/i

Ever since the Bolshevik revolution the direction has been toward greater unification rather than self-determination and Britain just isn't strong enough to buck this trend. Which means no matter what the likes of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Farage etc. say it's not on the table.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEzOgpMWnVsTHIS[/url is what happens to nations that harbour aspirations of self-determination.

If any nation attempted to balance the needs of big business against those of the people Yugoslavia, with its vibrant post-Tito mixed economy, stood out as a beacon.

Which is the reason it was ruthlessly smashed and Balkanised by the global gangster elite.

Thanks for the link

There's a really good documentary made from a Serbian perspective. If I can remember the name of it I'll post a link. Suffice to say there's a whopping disconnect between how mainstream media in the US & UK portrayed the Serbian-Milosevic government and reality.

C-SPAN gave a pretty hostile [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8or18rPZUE0interview of Milosevic[/url in which I thought he gave a creditable performance.

Now, I'm not saying the guy was all sugar and spice. But you have to remember that he was balancing the needs of the entire nation against the very bitter (and understandable) resentment the Serbs had for the ethnic genocide they suffered during WWII at the hands of the Croats.

Did anyone watch the SHAM that was the international tribunal before which Milosevic was brought? I knew something was very, very wrong when they kept censoring his words. To say I wasn't surprised when he died of an "apparent heart attack" in prison is an understatement.

The fact that we imposed outright fascist governments on the newly created former Yugoslavian states tells you a lot about what the objectives of the war were.

I've said this for years now - Yugoslavia was a very public and brutal message to anyone harboring delusional notions of self-determination. It is completely intolerable to the owning class and any attempt to follow such a path will be ruthlessly suppressed.

With this in mind you have to ask - what kind of "self-determination" are Boris and Michael offering?

Ever watched one of those vampire films? Remember how you must "invite" Dracula into your home before he can enter?

The illusion of democracy works best when the people willingly gravitate toward a leader. Right now their man, Cameron, is toxic. Yet how do they get people to switch allegiance to another Tory when the entire party is perceived to be corrupt and filled with nutters?

The answer lies in taking advantage of wedge-issues they've been cultivating for several years now ... national sovereignty, immigration etc. It wasn't all that long ago when you couldn't get a cigarette paper between Johnson & Cameron. Yet now you'd swear the former was Churchill re-incarnated (he's even wrote a BOOK on Churchill ... LOL).

I mean, after all this pantomime is anyone any the wiser about what EXACTLY will happen (policy-wise) the moment a decision to leave or stay is made?

We have no problem doing so now. So you would have us endure 'short term' pain for no net gain.

Yay you.

Where did I suggest that you weren't?

I do, however, reserve the right to pour scorn on it.

There are no true democracies on the planet and the UK is run by an unelected bureaucracy. The EU is no more and no less democratic than any Western country of your choice.

1. I don't know. Laziness? Gullibility? Stupidity? You tell me.
2. That would be the vast majority then.
3. Stupid was just one item on the list. They could easily be one or more of the others.
4. The vast majority of Brexiters are xenophobic at some level. Just look at the peak in the numbers whenever another immigration scare story hits the news.

Popycock. The EU is not any kind of existential threat to self-determination and young voters are overwhelming in favour of remaining in it.

The EU is a threat to certain right-wing interests being able to screw the rest of us over. Which is why the usual suspects are leading the Out vote.

Why would he care? I've searched all sixteen pages of this thread and I can't find a single post of yours which convinces me that your opinion is worth entertaining.

I mean, aside from telling everyone that you aren't a racist, xenophobe etc

etc. etc. what have you said?

For those people who continue to harp on about my supposed "belligerency" I'd just like to point out that it really isn't personal.

I just get frustrated by so many people with so little to say.

Do any of you actually READ books which don't feature Lewis Hamilton on the cover?

What happened to the Internet?

I remember having some genuinely stimulating discussions with smart people when I first started posting to Usenet. Nowadays I literally feel like scooping out my eyes with a spoon reading half the crap which gets posted in here.

I wouldn't mind if it weren't for that fact that I KNOW many of you are capable of much more. Yet you just don't try.



Feck it. I'm off to bed.

Oh, Hi, Mugwump. Nice to see you break away from talking to yourself in your private delusional threads long enough to scatter a few words of 'wisdom' in my direction. I could do with a laugh.

I'll just stop responding now and you can chunter away. Should make you feel right at home.

Seventeen pages, now...

Yes you do reserve that right , as of course do I on yours and others , hopefully a reasoned debate unlike certain others

It seems I was banned permenantly yesterday for posting on this thread , who by ? , no idea they obviously didn't feel brave enough to disclose who or why , or who has reinstated me

Happy to take part in as I said a reasoned debate , although a certain individual will now go on ignore , something I've never felt the need to do previously in 14 years of posting on this board

Unfortunately it seems the certain individual cannot be ' ignored '

I've yet to hear any argument by a ' young ' person other than they don't want to lose the ease of traveling within Europe

Those right-wing interests being what ?

I would respectfully suggest that such a silly post suggests your point 3 or indeed 4 may apply to you.

I cannot see any case whatsoever for remaining in the EU:

1. Economically it will continue to decline until it or unless it completely changes its modus operandi. It will destroy Britain's economy long-term by squeezing all innovation out - this has already happened in certain fields, eg drugs development, tech development, etc via centralised regulation. If it does dramatically reform then those who support it now for immature reasons like "workers rights" will be the first to complain.
2. Safer and more secure? Not a chance. The only "fact" is that Britain got dragged into two world wars due to forming alliances with other European states. Also, look at the uprisings (which we are only seeing the start of) in the poorer peripheral regions (which we will be in time if we stay in). Think of the potential future strife on the mass immigration of people from the Muslim world encouraged by Merkel. History strongly suggests this will result in bloodshed at some point in the future.
3. Getting out could stimulate growth and relieve poverty in Africa and other poorer regions as we could buy their produce more easily and more fairly.
4. It is utterly untenable for Cameron to pretend we can somehow be at the centre of the EU steering its development when we are not in the Eurozone. So that means the reasoners will have to sign us up to the destructive Eurozone in future. Why won't they say that? Could it be dishonesty - like our politicians have given us from the start if thus project?

To me the risks of staying in are enormous for the UK.

The youngsters seem to like being able to travel to Europe without a visa. Nobody seems to have told them that we used to before we joined the EU (other behind the iron curtain) or that other EEA members don't have a problem.

Eggsactly

I concur , the longer we remain in the deeper we will be dragged into it , and the more diluted will become our influence

The whole thing is a charade. Our Establishment is trying to con us again. The reality is there will be a federal tax system and if we are not members f the Eurozone where does that leave us? One of the levers our government has for managing The economy gone. The logic would once again mean we would have to join the Eurozone to survive. The whole things stinks.

People who believe their "interests" should be considered purely because, at certain points in their life, they have scrawled an "X" on a sheet of paper and stuffed it into a ballot box really do get the government they so richly deserve.

I mean, sure - governments don't exactly go out of their way to encourage participation. Indeed, I'd argue they actively discourage such. But as with anything there's an equal element of [ipersonal responsibility[/i. If you aren't prepared to get off your backside and hold these people to account you can hardly blame them for pandering to big business and the rich who go to GREAT LENGTHS to see that their interests are represented.

Yet people will pay (granted a small fee) to vote for some no mark in a singing contest or some idiot in a house to be kicked out, yet not walk to the polling station and vote for free on something that actually matters, I despise and despair of this society, it's so easy to change the system and the world if people could just think and act, neither of which people seem to do anymore.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "easy". I mean, in Western democracies you can impose a [ilimited[/i degree of change on elected governments. But we're only talking within a relatively narrow spectrum (and getting narrower all the time) because more and more power has been devolved away from politicians and into the hands of big business, NGOs and such (mostly via trade agreements such as NAFTA, GATT, WTO etc. etc.)

Moreover, you should always be wary about activist movements because stated motives and actual motives are not always the same. Take the "Tea Party" in the US. Few people know that around the time of its genesis it was actively pushing for an investigation into the events of 9/11. However, the moment the likes of the Koch brothers and such became involved all that went by the wayside.

History teaches us that whenever people have attempted to push beyond the "acceptable" boundaries of change they've encountered severe pushback. This ranges from penetration and subversion of activist groups, surveillance, warrantless searches etc. right up to long-term incarceration, torture and death squads.