Other than the emotive rubbish you write

I would be really interested in your definitions of known terrirists particularly as some of those involved in recent attacks were off the radar and not known as extremists.

Some were not but due to a lack of resources we could not keep an eye on them.
Maybe cuts to public services and the police contribute to this.

Is it comeone who travelled to syria and Iraq and Libya after we bombed them back to the Stone Age and left them as havens and training grounds for terrorists ? (9maybe we should stop intervening in these countries !!)

Is it someone who campaigns against western intervention in the Middle East ?


Is it someone who organises medical aid for Palestinians ?


Is it someone who prays 5 times a day and wears a beard ?


After we have identified the known extremists what do we do with them.?

Intern them ? That went well in Northern Ireland .

Assassinate them ?

Deport `them back to their own countries like err Britain ?

Prevention orders. Where there re not the resources to police them? Do it without any judicial oversights to stop them using justice as. Way of escaping the long TM of the law.

Ban them from observing some of their backward beliefs. . Maybe ban the veil it sounds catchy but is unlikely to do much to engender any security..

Maybe we could get them all to wear a big yellow crescent badge ?

Would love to hear your ideas ?

I am not averse to looking at ways of addressing the issues but your knee jerk reactions like UKIPS are catchy pick up in ange'r and frustration but they will only make things worse.

Doing the right thing is more important than doing something.

What is the right thing then??? Like I asked earlier but no answer, do we think the "carry on as normal" will make the bad guys get fed up and go away? People that naive?

And this knee jerk claim btw, me and most who are saying the same thing would've said this 12 months ago so you can stop dismissing it as people who are just too emotive at the moment, yet again another weak attempt to downplay the views of others.....'has to be emotive, has to racist etc'.

As others have mentioned in previous pages I don't have the exact answers to how we toughen up....but on the flip side the "carry on as normal" group can't tell me how that's going to stop children getting nail bombed.

Again you dismiss cracking down on known exterminate as simply the individuals who commuted these crimes......this goes higher than them towards the guys who radicalise them but are too cowardly to strap a bomb to themselves. Do you honestly think we're are tough enough on the numerous hate preachers in this country?

Well like Corbin says one of the key issues we need to address is Saudi Arabia.

You will remember tem they are the ones who bombed te Twin Towers in New York.

They are the ones we arm continually and buy oil from.

They are the ones who who run the madrasahs who promote radical Sunni Islam. They are the ones who are funding the fight against Assad.


They are the ones who fund the Sunni muslims and the preachers who promote the radical Islamic view.

Nice to know that you fully support Jeremy Corbin. Who has made this very point that we need to re evalulate our relationship with Saudi Arabia and have a discussion with them about what they do.

Maybe we could stop selling them jets and bombs that they drop on Houthi rebels in Yemen.




Do you trust Theresa May to stand up to the Saudis ?

Again you seem to not understand that suggesting we think about what we are doing that this means not cracking down.

There are many things that could be done.

Deal with the causes of some of the sympathy that people have for these extremists.

Stop getting rid of dictators we don't like but supporting ones that we do.

Stop invading countries and creating political vacuums in which they can survive and thrive.

Stop saying we re going to promote peace and democracy and equality in te Middle East but then ignore the war inequality and lack of democracy in Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Palestine.

Bring in control orders and prosecutions of Islamic extremists with JUDICiAL oversight.


Get more police on the streets.

Increase the number of security personnel needed to keep n eye on the potential terrirists.

Both the attackers in London nd Manchester were all reported to the Police and security Services on a number of occasions by members of the MUSLIM community.


What you do not do is increase the alienation anger and feelings of hypocrisy and discrimination which lead many people to sympathise with some of he aims of the extremists.

Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending.

Quote ="PrinterThe"Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending.'" It is pointless talking to you as you are so angry and frustrated you cannot get past the" we need to do something" mentality. You seem incapable of any sort of rational thought https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opin ... .html?_r=0 www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 73551.html Do a google search it is as clear as day follows night that Saudis Arabia is promoting salamis mall over the Middle East and in the west. I have been saying this for years so have Many others. May is talking about limiting free speech cracking down on Facebook etc. It is ignoring the big issue about Saudi Arabia. This is a fact.. Regardless of the election and Theresa May. Saudi Arabia is a disgusting state in its attitudes to women gays non muslims etc. Yet we bomb Iraq for the same reasons that we sell bombs and planes to Saudi Arabia. Deal with the cause of the cancer not just the symptoms. Locking up 3000 Muslim extremists in Britain will do nothing to stop those who are recruited in the next generations by the Saudis and their beliefs money and political ambitions in the Middle East.

Quote ="PrinterThe"Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending.'" It is pointless talking to you as you are so angry and frustrated you cannot get past the" we need to do something" mentality. You seem incapable of any sort of rational thought https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opin ... .html?_r=0 www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 73551.html Do a google search it is as clear as day follows night that Saudis Arabia is promoting salamis mall over the Middle East and in the west. I have been saying this for years so have Many others. May is talking about limiting free speech cracking down on Facebook etc. It is ignoring the big issue about Saudi Arabia. This is a fact.. Regardless of the election and Theresa May. Saudi Arabia is a disgusting state in its attitudes to women gays non muslims etc. Yet we bomb Iraq for the same reasons that we sell bombs and planes to Saudi Arabia. Deal with the cause of the cancer not just the symptoms. Locking up 3000 Muslim extremists in Britain will do nothing to stop those who are recruited in the next generations by the Saudis and their beliefs money and political ambitions in the Middle East.

Both sides of the debate are correct, but both are also wrong in failing to acknowledge the other side of the debate. We have to accept there is a huge problem within the Islamic community in regards to the Islamist/Wahhabi ideology. Simply saying, it has nothing to do with Islam is very naive. Yes, I'm sure the the majority of Muslims are peaceful people in general, but with 3m Muslims in the UK, even if only 1% subscribe, or sympathise with IS or Wahhabism that's still 30,000 potential extremists. Our security services are stretched to breaking point, it's impossible for them alone to weed out every potential threat. Muslims in this country need to do more to bring these people to the attention of the security services, and to other people in their communities. Islam is in dire need of a reformation, at the very least, because it's clear some of the Islamic scriptures are not compatible with modern civilization. Having said that, it took over 1500 years for Christianity to have it's reformation, and not too long before that there was the Spanish inquisition in Europe. We're about 1450 years into Islam's life, so perhaps what we're seeing now with IS is Islam's own Spanish inquisition. Whatever it is, it needs to end.
On the other side, it's also naive to think that our actions have nothing to do with increasing the threat of terrorism. We've cut police numbers by 20,000, we've not even appointed a counter terrorism co-coordinator. We've sold weapons to Saudi Arabia and allowed them to spread their ideology all over the world. We've essentially chopped up the middle east and propped up countless dictators in the region through selling them weapons and buying their oil. Then when they've decided they don't want to play ball anymore, we bring them down without having any plan to rebuild any type of democracy or infrastructure thus resulting the rise of groups like IS. Also, locking them all up in the same prisons was a huge error. Coalition forces have essentially created a huge global network of extremists by doing so.
I'd also suggest, carrying on as normal is a society is exactly what we should be doing. These people hate our way of life, they hate our democracy, and essentially the worst kind of fascists. Showing them that we won't bend to their barbarism is one of the best weapons we have at our disposal.

It's pointless talking to you because you and others just throw the full of hate and anger card. I'm not at all, but because it's the opposite to your views you feel the need to accuse my views of being attached to strong emotions to hide the fact you can't or don't want to answer the tougher questions raised.

Maybe in your mind we don't have to do anything, maybe you're okay that in a few weeks time more young children may well be nailed bombed and then you can start again pointing the finger at British people and politicians as the ones responsible. Just don't blame the ones responsible or at least find excuses for them like a rapist who blames the provocative way a girl was dressed.

He's made several valid points above, and even asked what we should do, and what you mean by 'we need to get tougher' and whether we should intern Muslims with extremist views. He's also suggested some things we could do to solve the issue, but you keep accusing people of wanting to do nothing, yet you haven't put anything plausible solution forward. Fine, lock them up, but then what, and how long for? So far all you've done is say people are scared of offending Muslims, and thrown in a couple of empty straw man fallacies. I mean comparing geopolitics to rape is about as reductionist as it gets.

So what are your solutions? The answer is there are no easy solutions. We are not living in a Hollywood movie. We’ve been complicit in creating a monster that will take years to placate. Internment didn’t work in Northern Ireland, it won’t work here. I do think senior Muslims in this country do need to spell out to younger people, loud & clear, that they will face eternal damnation or whatever warped logic their religion says. But more than that, we need to be honest about the hypocrisy & immorality of our actions in Muslim countries; both invading/bombing into the dark ages & selling of arms to evil dictatorships.
If you are suggesting starting to lock people up for thoughts or words that you might not like then we are on a very slippy slope which will create more monsters. Are those thoughts &words just reserved for Muslims, or to white people who urge violence against blacks/Muslims/MPs?

Unfortunately this situation will worsen both in the U.K and over in France and Germany . Have seen several Islamic leaders taunting us with the fact muslims have large families who in turn have large families.
All these children are subject to hard line Muslim rhetoric. It's virtually impossible for any of these offspring to marry outside of the Muslim structures.
Any that attempt to buck that trend are usually killed , ironically under the heading honour killing. It seems some on this forum seem to think/imply that it's Teresa Mays fault. Whilst ignoring the fact that labour for 13 years had a virtual open door policy.
Without doubt both parties should share some of the responsibility for permitting this scenario.
The root cause of the problem started many years ago with the vilification of a Bradford head teacher who dared to suggest that incoming migrants were not doing enough to integrate into society. He was hounded from office by the left wing politicians.
I repeat my comments I posted previously, the only solution to the problem has to come from the Muslim community.
At the moment this is not forthcoming, whilst some are appearing in public and making the right kind of comments, in private it's a different matter.

You're absolutely right - and I guess the debate is polarised because we have an election upcoming, which makes it very difficult to discuss on anything other than party lines.

On reflection, I'm not naïve enough to think that JC and a Labour government will solve the issue of Islamist terrorist attacks - but I am idealistic and hopeful enough to think that we need a different approach. Bombing these places into oblivion creates a power vacuum *and* a reason for more people to hate the West - which IS have exploited with more guile than some people give them credit for. Equally, our persistent cosying up to the vile Saudi regime has provided resources to fund and equip this network all over the world. At the same time, failures of successive governments to manage non-EU immigration have allowed many people with bad intentions to settle here and foment these beliefs in others. And then there's the thorny issue of religion itself - I have always believed that all religions are dangerous and belong in the dark ages, but it can't be denied that there are elements of Islam which provide those willing to interpret it with a mandate to murder.

I don't often climb down - but I agree - there is merit in *parts* of the approach from both sides of the argument; unfortunately, the adversarial nature of our politics doesn't always promote that type of conversation.

I work with several devout Muslims. Every one of them is the kindest, most polite person you could wish to meet. None of their children go to Muslim only schools. One sends his son to a Jewish school. As far as I know none of the children have been killed yet.

There is plenty to agree with in what Ray Honeyford said, but his description of a parent as speaking English "like a Peter Sellers' Indian doctor on an off-day" was patronising to the families of his pupils, & his attributing heroin addiction in English cities to migration from Pakistan was a slur on entire communities. He wasn't hounded out by politicians but by parents' action groups. Previous to this Bradford had bused it's children around the district to spread more evenly. this was stopped with children going to their local school. Either is preferable to the hideous concept of religious based schools which should have no place in a democracy.

I have muslim friends and colleagues also, one of them was pretty emotional the other week because his lad was getting called a terrorist at school after Manchester.

I've spoken to a few of them about the issue and they all basically say the same thing. That these guys are not muslims because it's forbidden to kill in the Quran and another fundemental belief is to respect the laws of the country you are in.

I would hope we could all agree with that; The National Secular Society sums up my feelings very succinctly:

"Whilst all schools should respect the beliefs of pupils and their families, no schools should seek to promote or instil such beliefs. Parents have the right to raise their child in accordance with their religious and philosophical convictions, but they should not expect to do that via the state or our publicly funded schools.

We consider the promotion and public funding of religious schools to be divisive and detrimental to social cohesion."

Quite obviously thousands of Muslims are decent citizens, many work in the health services . They will be just as furious as the rest of us at recent events . But the harsh fact is certain sections of the Muslim community are extreme in veiws towards western society. That section is of significant proportions to be an ongoing threat for years to come. My postings are quite measured and reasonable, certainly not extreme. I don't need to identify the problem it's patently obvious for all to see.
As a matter of interest have you a solution to the problem. Or because you are fortunate to work with some decent Muslims you don't think there is a problem.

I have posted on the previous page my ideas.

I have had the misfortune to work with numerous hideous white people though. Many would describe themselves as Christian. I haven't managed to cure all those either.

I have no doubt you work with some hideous white people. Fortunately for the Asian population this sector of the population whilst being as you claim hideous don't go around stabbing and blowing people up.
Our incursions into Iraq as you say have some bearing on the matter, but the first attack on the World Trade was in the nineties. Also the successful atack on the twin towers was well before the disastrous Iraq war.
The British people on the whole are an extremely tolerant society, from time to time certain people like nick griffin from the bnp crawl out from under a stone. But nobody buys into his racist rhetoric, he has now crawled back under his stone never to be seen again.

I would think you can trace the current situation back to the Iran/Iraq war, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait & the US/UK/coalition responses to that. These all preceded the World Trade Centre attacks.

As you say we have restricted blowing up thousands of innocent people to the Gulf, rather than on these shores. If you think we don’t go around stabbing & assaulting foreign looking people in this country I suggest you get your head out of the bile that is in the Daily Mail. We even kill our own MPs.

Nick Griffin might be back in the sewer where he belongs but only because his many sympathisers can now proudly support UKIP & the Tories as they move continually to the right.

Well that interesting and sensible exchange of veiws with you did not last long. You have no knowledge of what newspapers I read. I don't support ukip but your accusations of former bnp members becoming conservatives and ukip members is insulting to many people. You seem to be looking for any excuse to justify Muslim atacks in this country.
Political utterances in the daily mail are counterbalanced with the direct opposite in the guardian. The same on the tv channels although the BBC leans politically to the left. You pays your money and makes your choice. Likewise at the ballot box.
You mention the tragic murder of the mp and your accusation that we go around stabbing and assaulting foreign looking people .
The numbers are miniscule compared with the 7-7 bombers, Manchester arena and the latest London atrocities.
Ironically most deaths of muslims in the world are caused by other Muslims. No doubt you will find some reason to suggest we are responsible for this carnage.
I note that after the murder of lee rigby that one of the left wing brigade justified it by saying it was legitimate as he was in the army. So was a casualty of war.

I would put my mortgage on you reading the Wail. You try & compare a hate-filled Nazi supporting paper with the Guardian for balance? You are desperate.

Where have all the BNP voters gone? Labour, Libs, Greens? Stevie Wonder can see it is a small goose step to UKIP. As with BNP, I have not heard a UKIP voter on the street who isn’t racist. The Tories are moving more & more that way to woo the UKIP vote.

You then jump to your usual cowardly tactic of making sweeping unfounded generalisations because you cannot argue your point. Saying I am seeking to justify Muslim attacks is childish & pathetic. You bring up one post from an idiot about the horrific murder of Lee Rigby to try & taint anyone left of centre. Equally cheap & pathetic. An easy counter point is all the bile supporting the murder of Jo Cox.

G W Bush and Tony Blair made it clear years ago - its a battle between the civilised and uncivilised and that people are either for us or against us. But, as ever, the liberati mocked and hounded them and political resolve was weakened. People need to take a look in the mirror. To defend freedom and democracy requires people to fight for it and be ruthless in its defence.

Does this mean that you STILL think that Bush and Blair were right.
The power vacuum left after toppling Saddam and Gadaffi is utterly horrendous.
Nobody can deny that both of them were tyrants and carried out some despicable things but, do you honestly believe that those two countries (Iran and Libya) are in a better state now and less of a threat to "the west" than they were previously.

That's Bush & Blair for you...