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| Quote ="1905".. I have healthy normal relationships).'"
How [iare[/i your sheep, anyway?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"A rescue dog of the size and breed reported in this instance is entirely unsuitable for a young family'"
Being the proud owner of a Dogs Trust GSD myself I can only agree with you, our dog was abandoned by his previous owners when he was approx 18 months old, we don't know any details about him, he was unchipped and had no ID but after being found living on the streets by a dog warden he came to us with his own anxieties about abandonment which manifest themselves in the fact that he will not walk outside of our garden with one person, I spend all day with him (I work from home) and he has bonded with me in the way that all GSD's do but even with me he will not walk on his lead past the end of our drive and onto the street, if two of us go its fine.
The dog behaviourist at Dogs Trust (yes, free life access to a pooch psychiatrist) suggested that its his shepherding instinct not wanting to leave the rest of his family behind but its more than that as he goes into a blind panic fit, cannot be tempted by sausages (unbelievable but true) and will fight with me to get back to the house.
Its not a huge issue to us, we just have to take him out in pairs but he is approx four years old now and has been safe with us for two and half years so it does illustrate just how badly you can screw up a dogs mind by dumping it on the streets at a young age like a toy that you no longer want.
Its a great thing to take on a rescue dog but you also have to be aware that you have no idea of its history or any behaviour problems it may have had in the past or that its rehoming may have caused, they only have two defences when they feel threatened in a strange situation, run or fight, and if they choose the fight option then they only have their mouths to defend themselves with.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Being the proud owner of a Dogs Trust GSD myself I can only agree with you, our dog was abandoned by his previous owners when he was approx 18 months old, we don't know any details about him, he was unchipped and had no ID but after being found living on the streets by a dog warden he came to us with his own anxieties about abandonment which manifest themselves in the fact that he will not walk outside of our garden with one person, I spend all day with him (I work from home) and he has bonded with me in the way that all GSD's do but even with me he will not walk on his lead past the end of our drive and onto the street, if two of us go its fine.
The dog behaviourist at Dogs Trust (yes, free life access to a pooch psychiatrist) suggested that its his shepherding instinct not wanting to leave the rest of his family behind but its more than that as he goes into a blind panic fit, cannot be tempted by sausages (unbelievable but true) and will fight with me to get back to the house.
Its not a huge issue to us, we just have to take him out in pairs but he is approx four years old now and has been safe with us for two and half years so it does illustrate just how badly you can screw up a dogs mind by dumping it on the streets at a young age like a toy that you no longer want.
Its a great thing to take on a rescue dog but you also have to be aware that you have no idea of its history or any behaviour problems it may have had in the past or that its rehoming may have caused, they only have two defences when they feel threatened in a strange situation, run or fight, and if they choose the fight option then they only have their mouths to defend themselves with.'"
Both of my girls are rescue, my lurcher was found on the streets of Hull and taken straight to the pound where we reserved her less than a week later, and my staffy x collie was found on the streets of Wakefield, she had hours to live at the pound when a rescue centre picked her up and she was fostered for about a month before she came to us. We knew nothing about either of them and treated them as such and with caution and understanding until they were fully comfortable.
My behaviourist told me it can take upto 2 years for a rescue dog to feel safe, secure and fully comfortable in a new home. We've had them both for 6 years now and we're still learning about them.
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| Dogs are all descended from wolves, and on a basic level, we know what wolves do. They are a pack animal, they are predators, intelligent and collaborative, and hunt and kill to eat. They are not nasty or vicious or aggressive animals, they just do what they do, because that is how they survive.
The pack structure and communications are highly complex and very inflexible. Wolves (and dogs) know all the signs and signals and that is how they all get along passably well, as each knows its place in the pack, and if it steps out of line then it will be instantly dealt with. Killed, if its behaviour is deemed to endanger the pack.
As humans we've bred a wide variety of domesticated dogs from the wolf, but over centuries the breeding has been very selective, and targeted, like rapid evolution, to achieve the desired characteristics and eliminate others. So what you are left with is modern dogs, a mixture of millennia of wolf heritage, topped with rapid genetic tinkering.
In the home a dog only wants to know its place, and they are happiest and most chilled and best behaved once they accept that they are not in charge, and that they can (and must) leave me to deal with the postman. Anyone who is taught how to mould their dogs behaviour will very quickly notice a huge and amazing change. (I specifically am distinguishing behaviour from obedience; they are different things).
In summary, your dog's behaviour is entirely driven by what it sees as its job, linked to where it perceives its place in the pack (but in some breeds it is inbred that they are naturally inclined to forever challenge for a higher place in the pack, which is why some breeds just aren't suitable for family life). The dog can't help this; its genetic makeup dictates that that's how its behaviour works.
The good news is that you can thus very quickly alter most dogs' behaviour for the better, and get a more content dog, and all without saying a word, or getting any stress. You just need to understand the process and how it works from the dog's point of view. I say "just", but it's the wrong word, as a lot of what you think your dog thinks, or the effect of what you say and do, is very likely the direct opposite of what you think it is. This is why specialists in dog behaviour can come in and control your dog in seconds, and largely sort your dog in hours, when you have found it impossible. They can "think dog" and I'd say the majority of people both think they can do that, and are entirely wrong. They can't understand why however many times they yell at Rover, he still jumps up, fouls or whatever.
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| One should be mindful in these cases of lazy journalism before getting whipped up into a frenzy. One paper, i can't remember which one, thought it was a good idea to look at the womans facebook page, saw the first picture of the girl with a dog, a Mastiff, and ran with it on the front page. What they wouldn't tell you, of course, is that wasn't even the dog that killed her, so props to them for the accuracy and not fueling hatred of certain breeds ![Rolling Eyes icon_rolleyes.gif](//www.rlfans.com/images/smilies//icon_rolleyes.gif)
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| Sorry, probably a bit of an over reaction on my part to reading about Lexi Branson and what her mother did in an attempt to save a beautiful young girl.
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| Quote ="1905"Sorry, probably a bit of an over reaction on my part to reading about Lexi Branson and what her mother did in an attempt to save a beautiful young girl.'"
Unfortunately, and this will be a hard thing to bear, her parents may be partly to blame in their lack of understanding of dog behaviour and dog breeds, harsh comment to make, but possibly true.
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| Quote ="1905"Sorry, probably a bit of an over reaction on my part to reading about Lexi Branson and what her mother did in an attempt to save a beautiful young girl.'"
It's a hard thing to read about but Jerry is right, someone's clearly missed something somewhere that's led to a dog being in an unsuitable home. I don't want to speculate too much but a simple explanation could be that the dog, being a former stray, could have suffered some very nasty torment and a child pulling/poking at it's face could quite easily cause a panic.
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| So far as I can work out from the brief reports, experts reckon the dog is a cross between probably a bulldog and a bull terrier. Also, it had been wandering in a park, found and captured by the dog warden. It was about 7 or 8 years old.
When they went to get the dog from the rescue centre, there was a sign stating it was unsuitable for families with small children, but it is alleged that seeing this and querying it, they were told it was "all right as long as you don't let it jump up".
I don't want to be harsh on the mother, though anything anyone says will not make her feel any worse than she does, and I can understand why she is looking for someone else to blame, but really, for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would buy a dog that size and that age, which had been found roaming loose and whose character could have been anything, and even consider putting it in the same room as a small child.
Is there anyone else on here that if they'd been her would have taken that dog home to their small daughter?
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| My dog, a 6 year old springer x collie, is the most placid, laid back dog I've ever owned. Around two years ago he developed a dislike of attention from young (7-10 years old), blonde girls. If one comes close, he simply turns his head and issues a low, gentle growl.
Now bearing in mind that I've had him from 10 weeks old, this behaviour only manifested itself a couple of years ago and I cannot recollect a single incident where he's had a bad encounter with a young girl, I'm at a complete loss to any explanation for this behaviour. I am now wary of any young girl approaching him but am frankly amazed at the behaviour of some parents. During the Summer we were walking along the high street and while waiting to cross the road, a mother and her two children came behind us. The girl of around 8 years, simply said "lovely doggy" and wrapped her arms around his neck. When I berated the mother for allowing her daughter to behave in such a way with a strange dog, she told me that if I had "a dangerous dog, I shouldn't let it out in public".
I simply walked away shaking my head
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| Quote ="cod'ead"My dog, a 6 year old springer x collie, is the most placid, laid back dog I've ever owned. Around two years ago he developed a dislike of attention from young (7-10 years old), blonde girls. If one comes close, he simply turns his head and issues a low, gentle growl.
Now bearing in mind that I've had him from 10 weeks old, this behaviour only manifested itself a couple of years ago and I cannot recollect a single incident where he's had a bad encounter with a young girl, I'm at a complete loss to any explanation for this behaviour. I am now wary of any young girl approaching him but am frankly amazed at the behaviour of some parents. During the Summer we were walking along the high street and while waiting to cross the road, a mother and her two children came behind us. The girl of around 8 years, simply said "lovely doggy" and wrapped her arms around his neck. When I berated the mother for allowing her daughter to behave in such a way with a strange dog, she told me that if I had "a dangerous dog, I shouldn't let it out in public".
I simply walked away shaking my head'"
I once had a little boy, probably no older than three years old, run up to our 40kg GSD who was almost as tall as the kid himself, put his arm over the dogs shoulder and kiss the back of the dogs head while the parents stood and watched, complete strangers in a park, it was cute to see but of course the first thing a dog does is to turn its head to see what the hell is going on & could easily have knocked the kid over, you've also got a dog with a mouth as wide as the kids head now within inches of the kids face and a more nervous dog could have become very defensive - all was well because I had him on a short lead and he is a placid dog but completely irresponsible behaviour from the parents.
I've often been asked by parents of young kids in the park if their kids can stroke him and we're always happy to oblige when the dog is sitting and I am holding his head so that he doesn't turn quickly when the kid approaches, dogs are often more predictable in their behaviour than kids.
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| Quote ="1905"I don't wish to start a debate about the character of various breads.'"
I thought were were in for another barm/bread cake debate...
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| Dog ownership is similar to gun ownership, in that both, once they get in the wrong hands, become very, very dangerous.
I still can't understand how a dog, especially of the bulldog variety, can so easily be obtained by ANYBODY, with no form of licensing or investigation into a potential owner's background - What is even more astounding, is that it is almost universally accepted that a lot of these bull-type breeds, have become some sort of status symbol for the more undesirable members of society and yet we still allow the purchasing of these animals to be as simple as buying a loaf of bread.
From all the various bits of evidence that has emerged about this present tragedy, my own opinion is that to leave that poor girl in a room alone with a loaded gun, would have been safer than leaving her with that dog - It pains me to blame the parent, because she will have to live with the horrific incident for the rest of her life, but her parental judgement is probably on a par with when the McCann's decided a night out with their mates was a good idea.
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| my brothers 2 year old 40kg+ labweiler is a very boisterous and playful dog, he has his issues as well as he was never socialised properly (left in a garden with a bunch of toddlers to play with him until my brother got him at 10 months). He's great with kids most of the time but he is very easily unsettled when he's in unfamiliar surroundings or around other dogs that he doesn't know. He's very intelligent in that you can see he plays very differently with me (all 6'4 of me) as opposed to how he plays with young children but that doesn't mean we'd leave him alone with children.
Dog owners need to know how to be in control of their dogs, and unfortunately how to cater for absolute idiots and their dogs. We went to park a few weeks ago and 2 different dogs ran up to the aforementioned dog, one a black lab that was off lead and ran straight up, got right in his face and started growling. Milo stood tall but didn't even flinch as he was on lead and my brother commanded him to stay. The other dog then got closer so my brother pushed it away with his leg (not kicked, literally walked into it) and the owner looked like she was going to flip and didn't even try getting hold of her dog and just waited for it to walk away which it did after my brother shouted at it.
There are simply too many idiots out there, and not just the people who want a 'status dog' to look hard, there are a lot of people that just don't realise their dogs are capable of doing damage to both other dogs and people.
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| Quote ="the cal train"
There are simply too many idiots out there, and not just the people who want a 'status dog' to look hard, there are a lot of people that just don't realise their dogs are capable of doing damage to both other dogs and people.'"
Exactly - Your post is a good one as it exposes the folly of the present system for dog ownership.
Your brother sounds like a good 'dogowner', while the other person you mention sounds like the absolute opposite, yet it is as easy for either to get hold of a dog.... The problem is that in this country, we see the ownership of a dog as almost a right, in the same way that Americans see gun ownership similarly.
In the same way that many sensible observers see a shake up to the gun ownership laws in the US as an absolute must, then, in this country, we need similar concerning the owning and purchasing of dogs.
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| Quote ="Dita's Slot Meter"Exactly - Your post is a good one as it exposes the folly of the present system for dog ownership.
Your brother sounds like a good 'dogowner', while the other person you mention sounds like the absolute opposite, yet it is as easy for either to get hold of a dog.... The problem is that in this country, we see the ownership of a dog as almost a right, in the same way that Americans see gun ownership similarly.
In the same way that many sensible observers see a shake up to the gun ownership laws in the US as an absolute must, then, in this country, we need similar concerning the owning and purchasing of dogs.'"
I've said it before, to own a dog imo you should be able to demonstrate some behavioural awareness and attend at least 6-8 weeks of training classes. A dog can't hold a conversation with you so its upto the owners to learn exactly what their dog is saying/feeling/behaving by observing and learning its body language. I'm fascinated by dog behaviour so I tend to read up on as much as I can and apply it to my two, but every owner should read at least one book before they even [ithink[/i of getting a dog. I'm (surprisingly) not sure about gun licensing in the US but I would assume anyone sensible wouldn't think of owning a gun without having some sort of training first at a shooting range, likewise my driving instructor taught me the rudimentaries of how an engine works as he saw it as an important piece of knowledge to have if I owned a car.
The unspoken good dog ettiquette as well is, if you see a dog on a lead and yours is off lead, you put yours on lead too because you never know why that dog is on a lead, it may be for a simple reason as recall but you never know until you approach and talk to the owners. Unfortunately not everyone is aware of this unspoken etiquette but even so, it should be good manners anyway.
Will it ever happen? I doubt it as some people see dogs as their right and couldn't care less to find out about what makes it tick. I see my dogs as a priviledge not a right as I would hope most good dog owners would. They give me so much that I think I owe it to them to understand them as much as I can.
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| Quote ="Dita's Slot Meter"Exactly - Your post is a good one as it exposes the folly of the present system for dog ownership.
Your brother sounds like a good 'dogowner', while the other person you mention sounds like the absolute opposite, yet it is as easy for either to get hold of a dog.... The problem is that in this country, we see the ownership of a dog as almost a right, in the same way that Americans see gun ownership similarly.
In the same way that many sensible observers see a shake up to the gun ownership laws in the US as an absolute must, then, in this country, we need similar concerning the owning and purchasing of dogs.'"
the funny thing is my brother is a 21 year old, with a rottweiler and labweiler, who also drives a hot hatchback. Looking at him you'd imagine he was your typical status dog owner/chav/daft lad, but he truly loves his dogs and is a very good owner. He never intended to keep Milo as his own, he was bought to live with his girlfriends mum as a bit of security after her husband and both rotties had all unfortunately passed in the space of a couple of years, but my brother became his master in a matter of days of knowing him and they're truly inseparable. My brother denies it now but when we were much younger he was terrified of any pet bigger than our guinea pigs ![Laughing icon_lol.gif](//www.rlfans.com/images/smilies//icon_lol.gif)
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| Quote ="Hull White Star"
The unspoken good dog ettiquette as well is, if you see a dog on a lead and yours is off lead, you put yours on lead too because you never know why that dog is on a lead, it may be for a simple reason as recall but you never know until you approach and talk to the owners. Unfortunately not everyone is aware of this unspoken etiquette but even so, it should be good manners anyway.
Will it ever happen? I doubt it as some people see dogs as their right and couldn't care less to find out about what makes it tick. I see my dogs as a priviledge not a right as I would hope most good dog owners would. They give me so much that I think I owe it to them to understand them as much as I can.'"
If I put my dog ( bull/russel X, we think ) on his lead, he will happily take on a grizzly bear, off lead he is reasonably social with the occaisional raising of hackles and low growl if he feels threatened, so what is the better option?
All dogs are different, and require different behaviour, the important part is consistency , so the dog knows where he stands and what is expected of him , similarily when younger he would throw himself on his back at the sight of a child offering his belly for ticking, but would I leave him alone with a young child ( despite him not being big enough to do any real damage ) ? , no
The death of the young girl is a tradegy, but to introduce an adult large bulldog type of animal into a family with young children is not the cleverest thing to do
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| Quote ="Starbug"If I put my dog ( bull/russel X, we think ) on his lead, he will happily take on a grizzly bear, off lead he is reasonably social with the occaisional raising of hackles and low growl if he feels threatened, so what is the better option?
'"
That happens with many dogs, its a natural defence mechanism from feeling restricted on a lead, as I mentioned before a dog has only two mechanisms to deal with a perceived threat (not the same as what we'd see as a threat), to run away/show submission or to fight - they can do neither properly when tied to you. Mix in the fact that the dog also wants to protect you and you start to understand why many dogs can be more aggressive on the lead than off.
My own does not walk well on the lead as he pulls like hell because he always wants to be out in front - you can see this when you let him off the lead in open space, he then trots off 20 yards in front of you and will happily stay there all day, turning to check you every 30 seconds or so, part of that is a breed specific thing because GSD's have a trot that they can maintain all day, unfortunately its slightly faster than human walking pace ![Very Happy icon_biggrin.gif](//www.rlfans.com/images/smilies//icon_biggrin.gif) but its what he feels more comfortable doing and off the lead he is extremely relaxed and a very friendly dog.
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| Quote ="Starbug"If I put my dog ( bull/russel X, we think ) on his lead, he will happily take on a grizzly bear, off lead he is reasonably social with the occaisional raising of hackles and low growl if he feels threatened, so what is the better option?
All dogs are different, and require different behaviour, the important part is consistency , so the dog knows where he stands and what is expected of him , similarily when younger he would throw himself on his back at the sight of a child offering his belly for ticking, but would I leave him alone with a young child ( despite him not being big enough to do any real damage ) ? , no
The death of the young girl is a tradegy, but to introduce an adult large bulldog type of animal into a family with young children is not the cleverest thing to do'"
The better option is that you have your dog on a lead and you are in full control of your dog. If your dog is off lead, approaches a dog that is not so good with other dogs and that dog bites your dog, who do you think was in the wrong? YOU are for not having your dog fully under control. Its irresponsible to let your off lead dog approach an on lead dog and its annoying when you are aware and in fully control of your dog and an off lead dog approaches and the owner does nothing.
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| Quote ="Hull White Star"The better option is that you have your dog on a lead and you are in full control of your dog. If your dog is off lead, approaches a dog that is not so good with other dogs and that dog bites your dog, who do you think was in the wrong? YOU are for not having your dog fully under control. Its irresponsible to let your off lead dog approach an on lead dog and its annoying when you are aware and in fully control of your dog and an off lead dog approaches and the owner does nothing.'"
Yes I understand where the responsibility would lie, however off the lead he rarely approaches other dogs on a lead, and is trained well enough ( or is himself obiedient enough ) to follow my instructions to come away from overly boisterous or indeed agressive dogs be they on or off a lead
As I said all dogs are different, but consistency in behaviour of their owner is part of the key, if he shows signs of displeasure ( the raising of his ' mohawkan ' hackles ) on meeting an off lead dog my instructions to " come away " are followed instantly
Just how much ' under control ' does somebody have of any dog that is dragging them along a path?
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| Quote ="Starbug"Yes I understand where the responsibility would lie, however off the lead he rarely approaches other dogs on a lead, and is trained well enough ( or is himself obiedient enough ) to follow my instructions to come away from overly boisterous or indeed agressive dogs be they on or off a lead
As I said all dogs are different, but consistency in behaviour of their owner is part of the key, if he shows signs of displeasure ( the raising of his ' mohawkan ' hackles ) on meeting an off lead dog my instructions to " come away " are followed instantly
Just how much ' under control ' does somebody have of any dog that is dragging them along a path?'"
Rarely, but sometimes he can? And does any dog have 100% recall because mine certainly don't. Your dog, by approaching mine, may undo weeks, possibly months of training I have been doing, all because you won't lead your dog. Not only is it irresponsible, its arrogant too. For the sake of other dogs as well as your own (who can get seriously hurt by approaching an on lead dog) lead your dog if you see another approaching on lead.
How many times have we seen in the news an off lead dog running to a dog on lead and doing serious harm and the owner looking totally bewildered saying he's never done that before. Dogs are unpredictable and its not worth the hassle and upset it can cause.
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| Quote ="Hull White Star"Rarely, but sometimes he can? And does any dog have 100% recall because mine certainly don't. Your dog, by approaching mine, may undo weeks, possibly months of training I have been doing, all because you won't lead your dog. Not only is it irresponsible, its arrogant too. For the sake of other dogs as well as your own (who can get seriously hurt by approaching an on lead dog) lead your dog if you see another approaching on lead.
How many times have we seen in the news an off lead dog running to a dog on lead and doing serious harm and the owner looking totally bewildered saying he's never done that before. Dogs are unpredictable and its not worth the hassle and upset it can cause.'"
So I lead my dog, who then becomes aggressive, leading to quite possibly the other dog becoming aggressive, that is a satisfactory situation?
He will generally only approach smallish dogs or ones he is familiar with who are leaded, any that show any signs of aggression or over boisterous bahaviour are ignored and given a wide berth, his nature is quite simply when attached to me he is defensive leading to aggression, that is of no benifit to any other dog ,leaded or not, or their owner, all it does is raise the stress levels among all concerned
As I said, all dogs are different, and require different behaviour from their owners
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| Quote ="Starbug"[uSo I lead my dog, who then becomes aggressive, leading to quite possibly the other dog becoming aggressive, that is a satisfactory situation?
[/u
He will generally only approach smallish dogs or ones he is familiar with who are leaded, any that show any signs of aggression or over boisterous bahaviour are ignored and given a wide berth, his nature is quite simply when attached to me he is defensive leading to aggression, that is of no benifit to any other dog ,leaded or not, or their owner, all it does is raise the stress levels among all concerned
As I said, all dogs are different, and require different behaviour from their owners'"
Yes as both parties will have full control of their dogs and both equally as liable instead of one party being libelous.
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| Quote ="Starbug"So I lead my dog, who then becomes aggressive, leading to quite possibly the other dog becoming aggressive, that is a satisfactory situation?
He will generally only approach smallish dogs or ones he is familiar with who are leaded, any that show any signs of aggression or over boisterous bahaviour are ignored and given a wide berth, his nature is quite simply when attached to me he is defensive leading to aggression, that is of no benifit to any other dog ,leaded or not, or their owner, all it does is raise the stress levels among all concerned
As I said, all dogs are different, and require different behaviour from their owners'"
All this talk about whether dogs are aggressive on a lead, or off it, is quite bizarre.... Why bother owning something that is a ticking timebomb??..... I doubt you would buy a car if the seller pointed out that there is a small chance that the brakes may fail??
I'm quite apathetic about dogs, but I do it find it strange that people want to go out for a walk with something, knowing that, at any point, you could be involved in something a bit stressful like a dogfight, or worse, a dog attack on a human.... It must be the similar feeling to going out on a Saturday night with a group of friends, knowing that a couple of them get a touch aggressive after 5 or 6 pints - It kind of takes the edge off what should be a pleasurable evening out?
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