Given that it looks like we're on the verge of YET ANOTHER full-scale Israeli offensive against the embargoed, besieged people of Gaza I think it's worth recalling a few statistics from the last Israeli incursion in 2008 (figures drawn from the UNHRC Goldstone Report):

1,400 Palestinians dead. Four fifths were civilians. 358 were children.

Number of Israelis killed - THIRTEEN. Ten of which were combatants and half were the victims of friendly fire.

For every Israeli killed ONE HUNDRED Palestinians lost their lives.
For every single Israeli civilian killed FOUR HUNDRED Palestinians died.

That's the inevitable result of being stupid enough to pick a fight with some one enormously more powerful than you.

The regimes of Nazi germany and Stalinist Russia saw millions and millions die. Many more than the British and American regimes.

Are we supposed to see the British and American regimes as the aggressors of WW2 simply because the loss of life on their sides was vastly less than the loss of lives elsewhere?

Is there some sort of point there?

Two words:

"Proportional response".

I think expecting Israel to hold back whilst its citizens are killed because whilst the Palestinians are trying to kill them, they aren’t really very good at it is ridiculous.

Let's look at what really happened:

Hamas won a free and fair election.

The US & Israel attempted a coup to overthrow the government ("Democracy Promotion"icon_wink.gif. Hamas foiled the coup and sent those involved packing to the West Bank.

Israel then tightened the blockade. Goldstone called it a [i"possible cime against humanity"[/i.

[i"A flagrant violation of international law" [/i- according to Amnesty International

[i"Gaza's whole civilisation has been destroyed. I am not exaggerating. Its whole civilisation has been destroyed"[/i - former human rights commissioner - Mary Robinson (after her visit).

June 2008 - An Israel Hamas ceasefire brokered by Egypt. Each side had obligations. Palestinians - cease rocket and mortar attacks. Israel - gradually lift the blockade (a flagrant violation of international law).

According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs [i"Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. There were some rogue terrorist organisations - but not Hamas". "Hamas enforced the ceasefire on the rogue terrorist organisations with a great deal although not total success!".[/i

Israel, however, reneged on lifting the blockade.

What happened next: (Amnesty International yearbook for 200icon_cool.gif.

Israel waited till election day in the US and then killed 6 in airstrikes.

What did Hamas do next? They kept saying until the end of December - [uWE ARE READY TO RENEW THE CEASEFIRE, BUT Israel has to lift the illegal blockade.[/u

December - Sarah Roy - [i"The breakdown of an entire society is happening in front of us. But there is little international response beyond UN warning which are ignored".[/i

Hamas then had two options: Succumb to starvation or resist. They chose the latter (although largely symbolic).

I find it interesting you specify how flagrant a breach of international law the blockade is, yet no mention of the legality of the attempted murder of civilians via terrorist activities.

Has anyone else spotted the "co-incidence", BTW?

I didn't - Goldstone (a widely respected WC jurist and, interestingly, - a Jew) & AA did.

Are they there with you? Cos im pretty sure you typed that, and you didnt quopte this [iJune 2008 - An Israel Hamas ceasefire brokered by Egypt. Each side had obligations. Palestinians - cease rocket and mortar attacks. Israel - gradually lift the blockade (a flagrant violation of international law) [/isooooooooo

You do understand that rocket attacks are against individuals (even though Israel admitted Hamas cracked down on militant groups) whilst a blockade hurts every single Palestinian in Gaza? You are aware of the current "living" conditions in Gaza because of that blockade?

And you think that's a commensurate response? I'd expect someone from the Waffen SS to argue this point in relation to the Warsaw Ghetto, BTW.

At the end of the day Hamas are a terrorist organisation and so their democratic right to power is somewhat limited. They really shouldn't be allowed in the vote, given their actions.

Israel by plenty.

Really? Which individuals are they aimed against? Do we have a list of names? If so they really should be released before hand so everyone else can go about their day without worrying they might be killed or maimed by, what up until today, was thought to be indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire.

The Palestinian rocket and mortar fire aimed at civilians, is also a flagrant breach of international law, you can't condemn Israel for breaching international law, but sympathise with the Palestinians for doing so.

Really? I know 'smart weapons' have come a long way but I had no idea that they were that sophisticated. What target discrimination system do they use? How is the blast radius constrained?

Do I really need to explain the difference between mostly home-made rockets which are capable of killing individuals (1 to 5 or maybe 10) and cutting many of the most essential supplies to EVERYONE in the Gaza Strip?

I see that I do.

Let me guess, you want to pretend that the Gaza blockade is a form of collective punishment whilst the indisciminate launch of rockets (the fact the Palestinians dont have very good ones is pretty irrelevant, an incompetant murderer isnt morally better or worse than a competant one) and mortar rounds (circa a hundred today apparently) isnt.

So what is this supposed to teach us? THat It is morally more acceptable for Israel to bomb palestine back to the stone-age, launching hundreds of rockets a day and killing indiscriminately than it is for the to continue their blockade?

What about that wall the Israelis built a few years ago ? That's illegal but they won't budge on it.

It IS a form of collective punishment.



Israel has no intention of negotiating and will not cease until it controls all of the Gaza strip and West Bank. How much of the West Bank has it stolen already?

The Palestinians have a choice - die or fight. They're fighting.

I think you just consigned yourself to your own drawer.

And you think that Hamas does?

If some miracle were to occur and Israel suddenly and completely complied with all it's obligations under international law, do you really believe that the rocket attacks would stop?

You really need to be able to perform superhuman feats of twisted logic to think 1 civilian death is equally as bad as 400.

I salute you.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8654337.stm

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8654337.stm

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPe5zcTjH4"There was NO WAR in GAZA, it was a MASSACRE"[/url

I'd call it closer to extermination.

When someone has the clear intention of 'wiping you off the face of the earth' and then keeps lobbing rockets into your back garden, what the hell are you supposed to do. I don't blame Isreal for responding and its pointless doing so unless you are going to show them you mean business. Hamas are a blood thirsty bunch of terrorists and the people who voted for them have to also shoulder the blame as they new what they would do, after all it was the equivalent to a manifesto pledge.