I can see your point but I don't think it's time to be calling for Morgans head just yet, he still has 'too many runs on the board' for us to turn on him after one bad half of a season but this may be a wake up call for him and the fans that we aren't the world beaters we maybe thought we were.

This period will make or break JM, if he can turn this around and get us on track it will make him a far better coach for it, you learn far more about someone in difficult times than you do in good times.
I think Morgans got a year to turn it around. He needs to improve this season, recruitment needs to be around the current failings and then IF he doesn;t improve by this time next year then the real questions need asking.

No. We do not have the quality in the squad for a top four finish.



He did, but with the club in the position that it is/was, who else was available? We've not won anything for nearly thirty years, we're not flush with cash, our coach is not known in Australia. we're not in a position to be signing the top players.

I forget who other clubs have signed in similar positions, I suppose the really big glaring error of this off season is that both us and Huddersfield were apparently in for Mason, we got him and they got O'Donnell, probably for a lot less.

You're far more clued up on this sort of thing than me but we appear to have severely limited our selves by only dealing (more or less) with Riolo in Australia and Howes over here. Why/how did this happen?

I whole heartedly think that we'll never challenge for as long as we rely on signing a whole team (Be they Antipodeans or whoever) and that you have to have a production line of your own talent and then use signings to cherry pick marquee players for specialist roles.

Has Morgan done enough to recruit and develop a new generation of talent quick enough? I don't know enough about the inner workings of the club to answer that, but from time to time people who appear to have some sort of inside track have been quite critical on here.



For me, 2009 was a bit of a fluke. In those first seasons we seemed to do a pre season that was geared to coming out of the blocks quickly and getting points on the board and then try to hold on as long as we could. That combined with other teams having awful seasons led to us being in a bit of a false position. Last season we seemed to be looking to gradually aim to peak for the end of the season which we sort of did. This season has obviously gone badly wrong. If we're in this position this time next year then I think that wholesale changes would be absolutely imperative.

Bit of a rambling post that, which I haven't really read back. I'm sure it's a bit inconsistent so feel free to pick it to bits! It's good to be having some proper thought out debate on here.

in the hull daily comic morgs is changing his training tactics hip hip hooray

Its taken him long enough to realise something has to change!!!!

I don't think 2009 was a case of overachieving or a fluke. Over the course of a season the results don't lie. We had a really good 27-round season but then ran out of steam in the play-offs. Other teams might have been disappointed to finish behind us, but they did - because Rovers were better than them.

However the flipside of that is that our current travails are not just down to bad luck - just as we were quite good back then, we're now quite poor.

So what went wrong? There is tendency amongst sports fans to bounce between the extremes of seeing their team as brilliant or poop. And it only takes a few extra errors, dips in performance etc to move you to the other side of the fulcrum. The fulcrum itself moves over time reflecting what is a par score for the relative quality of your team. In 2009 we were on the upswing, now we've hit the down cycle, IMO. It was unlikely ever to be a direct and triumphal march to ever greater success. Some Hull fans thought similarly in the middle of the last decade and we've maybe fallen in to the same trap. The trick is to halt and reverse the trend - whether with drastic action or a firm hand on the tiller. IMO the latter looks the better bet.

Most cliches - EVER!

You've had injuries to key players. In the past you've had very good continuity in your halves which determine the team's personality whereas this season it's been more difficult. You haven't had your best forward, Newton, available for much of the time. The off field stuff can't have helped either. Your back three has also been affected with injury and just basically loss of form (Fox in particular). These things in combination conspire against you, particularly when squad depth in terms of quality isn't that deep.

I will take your lack of a responce to mean that I am correct and you can indeed not find another player like this at a top club.

You don't seem able to supply me with a name either.
How very strange.
Maybe he Isn't as 'needed' as it is made out after all.
That being the case I would class Jason Netherton (Nothing personal Jason mate honest) as a classic example of the kind of player that his holding us back.
Makes you wonder.
Strangely enough I asked a similar question on the 'other' board and I was greeted with the same wall of silence on there as well!!

Korkidis at Wakey, he's rubbish.

Edit; Actually, just had a look at his stats. He's miles better than Netherton!

The hunt continues!

Nope, just had a very quick trawl through the squads and stats and all I've concluded is that Netherton has better hair than Karl "Cheese N" Temata and has missed nearly three times as many tackles as Ewan "Rubbish" Dowes.

With the greatest of respect to Wakey, Crusaders and FC I did say top teams (Something we aim to be apparently).
Before anyone says it no this isn't a thinly veiled attack on Hull FC.

There isn't anyone. I like Netherton but I think we can now safely conclude that he's just not good enough.

I think "are they" should be put there.

Really tell me more

Actually Roverswall I sleep through the day, work at night and had a very busy Thursday night so was unable to reply!

I would probably say Ian Kirke is a similar player that plays for a top team regularly. Last season they played almost as many games as each other and their stats are VERY similar.

Kudos to me I think!

Are you a prostitute?



Is this the same Ian Kirke that Leeds fans constantly deride and pretty all to a fan have absolutely no idea how he gets in the team or what the point of him is? That Ian Kirke?



In that you've found a player as ineffectual as Netherton? Well done.

Was asked to find a player at a top club that gets in the team every week and is like Netherton! Also Kirke has had at least 3 coaches who have all constantly picked him, there is a reason the Leeds fans are stood on the terraces and work for an average of about 20k a year compared to those three coaches that were or are earning at least five times that much!!!!

Us Monday morning coaches are writing on message boards for a reason!

Very true. I'd be an awful coach, I'd be wanting to score eighty metre tries off every play.

You said top 'club' which Hull are. Team, no, but club, yes.

Similar?
This season Kirke has made an average of 21 meters more per game, He has made an average of 1.6 more carries a game which means Ian Kirke makes an average of 1.29 meters more from all those extra carries.
He has also made more average offloads 0.25 compared to Jason Nethertons average of 0.22.
Still at least Jason Netherton has made more tackles (The benchmark of a SL forward apparently).
So not as similar as you think then.
But hey if you want to continue to think the like of Jason Netherton will take us onto the next level because he can tackle go for it.
I would like our forwards to do a little bit more.

You're a very cross man.

Poor Jason Netherton.

It gets better.
On average since 2007 (The first year HKR/JN played together in SL).
Ian Kirke has made an average of 49.6 meters per game Jason Netherton has made an average of 46.7 so that is + 2.9 meters per game to Ian Kirke so yes so far there isn's much in it so far.
Average carries per game is 7.4 to IK, 7.6 to JN so again similar.
JN wins on the tackle per game stats (This isn't in arguement although surely that stops them being similar?)
IK makes an average of 6.6 meters per carry, JN makes an average of 6.1 an extra half a meter PER carry will make a diffrence.
IK has made 44 (Average of 0.6 offloads per game), JN 11(Yes 11 in over 4 years)(Average of 0.13 per game) so we safely say Ian Kirke wipes the floor with Jason Netherton here.
My last stat is for tackle busts IK has made 48 since 2007 (0.6 per game), JN has made 46 (0.5).
So in conclusion Ian Kirke makes 2.9 meters more per game, He makes half a meter more per carry, He has made 33 (yes 33) more offloads (0.43 more per game), plus 0.1 per game more tackle busts.
Jason Netherton makes more tackles (I always said he was in the side to do this) and he makes an average of 0.2 more carries per game.
So like I said in my previous post not as similar as you would think.



Is this the part where you have to return that Kudos?

The stats don't give the full picture IMO .

Your comparing a player from a GF winning side to one performing in a lower ranked side.

Leeds by virtue of being a top side they would have been on the front foot more - thus less tackling and more offensive plays.

In our first SL two seasons in particular we were certainly up against it , and often only long periods in defence brought us results.

Its funny you should mention that.
Ian Kirkes worst 2 years for average meters where 2008+2010
His best 2 years where 2011+2009
Jason Nerthertons worst 2 years where 2010+2011.
His best 2 years being 2008+2007.
So in actual fact he made more meters per carry in exactly the years we were up against it as you put it.
Ian Kirke made 24 offloads last year, Jason Netherton made 5, Infact in no point has JN surpassed or even matched IK on this stat, but his best 2 years were infact 2008 and 2010.
Infact if we remove 2007+2008 for the averages the gap between the 2 gets even bigger.

Interesting indeed.

Though I suppose the coaches game plans and team selection will not be too much based on these stats , having a player who can put a fair old stint in defence will be of some merit with regard team selection.

IMO , JN is definitely no world beater but puts a decent shift in defence in particular , and has been worth his inclusion in the squad.