For me, Larry B is right about Dobson on the kicking aspect. A large proportion of our play has revolved around his kicking game.

Leuluai // Dobson - each to their own.

My view - we couldn't have realistically got any further than we have. We may not have won anything or even win anything soon, but let's face it, to go up against every challenge that was before us and come out the other side is one hell of an achievement for the club. We had one realistic shot at promotion, odds on to go down, 1 season to dispel the myth of two clubs in one city, improve facilities (from pitch/turnstiles/stands/lights*), win a franchise, continue improvement team/youth/ground/attendances - all achieved and credit to everyone involved. We’ve now built a foundation to go forwards, it could be stronger but I can’t see how we could’ve done a lot more in truth.

Back on topic

I hope 'The Exiles' win

*line set …. =#FFFFFFDrooler/Imp/Dave/ ….?

Think you misread me a bit BR, i was replying to somebody saying they were baffled Dobson was not in the Exiles squad.., Dobson is a good player in his own right no question, but he is not as good as Leuluai.., there is a reason Dobson cannot get a gig in the NRL and was not retained by Wigan and why Leuluai had played more NRL 1st grade at 19 then Dobson has in his career...and is a seasoned NZ world cup and tri nation winner and scrum half with the English champions who can also play hooker to a very, very high standard..(Mcllorum is the Wigan nine this year, Riddell last..Leuluai is first choice 7 , Tomkins 1 etc...)..

He is of course good enough to play in our first team but the question of whether he is right for us and whether we could have done better is very interesting and another thread on its own...even within our own heirarchy it is known that Dobson can be a liability in defence and sometimes goes "missing" in games of importance...on the whole the guy has a first class kicking game but is middling in other areas...Leuluai has a far superior game in every area aside kicking...

Rovers have several very good players and many i do take pleasure in watching but we also have some ordinary members of the squad and some who are well past their prime..and are not proving any sort of value for money imo..but apparently it is heresy to think this....we really should be in better shape for a club operating at the spend we do is my opinion...

being an Hull KR fan first, second and third I am staying with my years old belief that clubs comes first and I don't want ANY of our players picked for ANY representitive side. You can imagine the nightmare scenario of Newton, Galea, Vella and mason all picking up injuries and us going on another 'slide' (assuming we arrest the one we are in at the moment)

I'm not sure having those players missing would adversely affect Rovers that much (if at all) and in many respects their replacements may even improve the team and in the longer term could well improve the clubs finances.

I share that view but then again I dont live within breathing distance of Craven Park.

I think you will find that squad numbers mean nothing these days. Mcillorum (sp), may have the 9 shirt but if Finch and Deacon are fit those two will go in at 6 and 7. TL will go in at 9 and will be spelled.

TL doesn't have a great kicking game, as a 7 that is a massive role to take and it will show in the performance if England can trap them in their own quarter. With Dobson it would be highly likely a 40/20 or at least some kind of kick turn around would be possible.

I also have to disagree on the Blake Green comment. He has come in to a side that is struggling for confidence, he started the season brilliantly scoring a try in each of his first 4 games, one of which he ran 80mtrs out pacing some of the fastest players in the SL. His passing is IMO better than most in the game, I have not witnessed a more crisp pass than his especially when we go from one side of the pitch to the other. But as with any team if you don't have a good 7 your 6 might as well just not even bother.

Think we'll have to disagree on the Dobson / Luluai thing but generally I agree with a lot of what you say. I think where we are lacking today is not with our 'star' players, Dobson, Newton etc (although some of our high earners aren't cutting it) but our 'other' players. I personally think we have players that can compete at the highest level but the 2nd string so to speak isn't the quality of the top sides and this lets us down.

I think we also lack severly in pace, both in terms of outright ability to run fast but also to pass fast. I do think green is an improvement on the latter point but our wingers seem like snails in comparrison to som top teams.

In some ways I agree with what GG is saying that missing a few players may in the long run be beneficial, if this slump has done one thing it is allow Scott Taylor to show he can cut it, if the team around him was performing he would be looking very good indeed.

Dobson, Green and Galea will speed our passing up but what we are missing dreadfully is an exceptional hooker. If our ruck speed was to be faster and the hooking role being done by someone like Luluai I have no doubt we would improve dramatically.

As you say the lack of general pace in the side is worrying, people like Vella say they've never played with a faster winger than Fox so why when he crosses that white line does he seem to be caught by plenty of 'slower' players?

Also the speed of thought is not there, watching last weeks interview with Tommy Martyn was interesting because even though the game has evolved since the '90s we are still not using the numbers game to our advantage. Too many times we go where the defenders are in greater numbers and we do not draw players in. Most teams now aim for the sticks with their forwards and that sets up a play on either side of the ruck, but while in at the sticks defenders are able to go on equal numbers either side so if we aimed for say 15 in from touch they would have to man up on the short side leaving the open side short for us to throw a couple of long passes or even like against Hull in the playoffs a kick over to the winger who will be in acres of space.

Hudds play like this very successfully and in our game with them the other week they just pulled us around the park and opened our flanks ups. We never seem to get in theses positions.

Nick, with the greatest respect you need to watch a bit more RL than just Rovers.., Deacon has started precisely 2 games of his Wigan career at scrum half both at the beginning of last season.....Thomas Leuluai has started 130 games for Wigan at scrum half...he is the scrum half end of....and is used on occasion at hooker to a very high standard...you think Dobson could do that...???

Green is showing why he is a second grader unwanted in Australia, plays for 20 minutes a match max , admittedly has scored a couple of decent tries and done the odd good thing but Sammut for instance scores better every week..you see similar in the Championship....a good stand off is involved heavily for 80...we need to stop lauding ordinary Australian players as something special, does nobody any favours.....and i think it is already clear he is another who does not have the "winners" mentality...

Bit of a contradiction there, you call Green average, say stop lauding average Australian players and then praise Sammut who is the very definition of an average Australian player. Poor defender, drifts in and out of games and if you look in the dictionary under inconsistant theres a picture of Sammut.

It's far too early to jusge Green, I think this whole year it will be too early. I've seen Wigan play a few games this year and Finch looks average at best. Last year pre injury Orford looked average. In his first year in SL Matt King dreamed of being average. I could add the likes of Berrigan, Perry, Lima, O'Donnell, Riddell, Mason. The list is endless, some of these haven't had time to bed in yet, others had time and didn;t show up well and others took time and became very good. What none of these players where / are is average, there list of winners medals, caps, representative honours is endless theres just reasons they need time.

I don't just watch Rovers so whatever gave you that impression I'd forget it. I didn't say Deacon was scrum half I said he was the stand off alongside Finch. If Finch and Deacon click then Leuluai will be the hooker.

As for Green been involved for 20mins a game, what a load of tripe! Not only would he be involved more if the rest of our players would stop giving away penalties he can't run the game all over the park. Even the best half backs in the game struggle to direct play on their own without a scrum half to help out. If you think Sammutt is better then I suggest you look at how he is being used at the moment, off the bench, that doesnt look to me like a player that directs a team around the park and is integral to a teams attack. In Leuluai and Sammutt you have two players that play off the cuff, they are fast, illusive and skillful but not good team players.

You certainly underestimate Greens ability and seem to see the negative side of everything HKR. I know times are hard at Rovers at the moment and I accept there are better players in this league than both Dobson and Green however depending on what style of game your team is going to play Dobson would offer a more all round game than Leuluai yet wouldn't do something totally amazing and unexpected.

Ask yourself, if Dobson is not as good as Leuluai yet he has played 130 games for Wigan at scrum half why is it Dobson that has taken the accolades over the past two years and TL has been nowhere near the dream team?? Maybe you need to take your cherry and white glasses off for just one moment and realise we do actually have some better talent than Wigan in certain positions.

You dont seem to get the drift of my posts BR, the exact reason i was comparing Sammut to Green and stating Sammut scores some goods tries (i never praised him) was because he is, as you rightly say, very average at other aspects of the game..yet Green, who is probably not as good as Sammut, because he plays for Rovers is something special...you get my drift...???

If Green was playing for Crusaders, Salford, Wakefield or even Hull you wouldnt give him a second glance...in fact if he was playing for Hull i wager rovers fans would be saying what a poor signing he was in such an important position..

And while im on the subject, the Morgan decision to make him captain goes in his own hall of fame top 10 worst decisions ever...

Just to help you out in summary, Rugby League supporters tend to be biased towards their own players. (both consciously and sub-consciously)

Happy to help.

Nick , i guess you think the world is flat..., Leuluai is the scrum half, there is no question.., Finch has been signed as a stand off, Deacon is a bit part player at most...Leuluai has played 131 times for Wigan, 130 at scrum half...you cannot get more incontrovertible than that i am afraid....

I am sure Tom Leuluai must be devastated that Dobson got in the dream team chosen by a panel of whom half know precisely nothing, if only he could swap his Grand Final winners medal ( and the massive bonus), World Cup winners medal and Tri Nations winners medal and his huge respect within the RL world for a place in the dream team i am sure he would...

And see the above post re Sammut and Green , another who doesnt get it....

It must just be me that watches with two eyes Dave...

You'll still have an element of sub-conscious bias, we all do. Some of us are able to step away a bit more than others though and see bigger pictures/both sides of an arguement.

I have to do that a lot because of my job, although i don't know it much on RLfans, it's more fun to have the biased view.

You're not getting my drift either, in fact I think somewhere we are even agreeing. My point is that Green hasn't really set the world alight I agree. but in all fairness he's played 9 games for us, 7 of these in a side that had 3 of it better players out and one of whom who is our most influential play maker.

Where we differ is I'm willing to give him time, see if he builds up a partnership with Dobson, this point in this season is far too early to judge any player be it Green, Hall or Mason. I agree with Dave T, you do seem to have a downer on our players, I'm not into the red and white tinted glasses view but I'm also not a cup half empty man.

What is your view of the players I listed in my previous post, should they be / have been cast aside when they didn;t perform in a similar manner as you seem to have with Green.

To be fair what i did see of Riddell and Berrigan it was obvious they were very good players.., Riddell was part of the champion side , Berrigan was criminally misused by Hull in my opinion, would have loved to have seen him at Rovers.., from my limited evidence of the others i think O Donnell has already shown he is quality , Perry and Lima have yet to show much and Mason and Morgan need to decide why he is here...

The thing about all the above though is that they all have "runs on the board" in Morgan speak, all rep or international players who without question , have done it and a probably a good bet to come good.., Green has never done anything, has no runs on the board etc ..and in my opinion was not a good signing for such a pivotal role in such a supposedly aspirational team, i held this view prior to him signing and nothing i have seen has changed my mind..he is not a "winner"...the phrase "here for the experience" springs to mind.....one of the reasons i think we have missed the boat..we should have made a "quality" six and nine , as Nick quite rightly says, a priority...instead we give a reserve grader a two year deal and the captaincy.. for all the good it will do us.. i,e none., we might as well have given Bell two years to see if he can crack it...nothing to lose if we aint bothered about challenging..(and perhaps everything to gain..)

Think LB's stock is increasing by the day, he's pretty much owned everyone on this thread.

But in fairness Dobson had no runs on the board, yet ,even if you disagree, he has been a very good player for us. Ridell played in a champion side I agree, but in all fairness was nothing more than average for them, Andy Coley also played in that champion side and he's average to poor at best.You seem to be saying reputation prior to coming is all that matters unless your signing for HKR then why the hell are you here (this is what your comments ref Mason seem to say). There are some players that come over with no real reputation but our game just suits them more than the NRL. The diamond in the rough to quote a phrase, Pat Richards had few runs on the board, journey man was used to discribe him, yet he seems to have done ok.

I'm willing to give Green the benefit of the doubt as I believe his attributes will compliment Dobsons rather than our other 6's which seem to hinder. If by the end of the year he has shown no improvement then I will hold my hands up.

Bell isn;t ready yet, not sure if you've seen him play but apart from being injured he isn't there yet, a year or so's time and he'll be ready and needs to be eased in. If he was fit right now then I'd maybe say give him a go, but he was no way ready to be ourstarting 6. Hardcastle (No7) looks further away still and will need to add a bit of bulk to compete at SL standard.

I think you put across a decent arguement but you do seem very eager to put ourplayers down and big up others who in all honesty are no better than what we have.

Just out of interest in your opinion apart from Luluai, is there another class 7 in SL.

Your definition of owned seems quite strange. I see this as probably one of the few decent discussions I've ever had on here that hasn't been derailled or plummetted into personal insults. Still theres time yet for it to go down hill..

You definition of a poor player (Andy Coley) is also quite strange. I would take him over any of Rovers props, in fact i would find it extremely difficult to find a place for any Rovers player in the current Wigan side.

LB clearly knows his stuff and i think he has well and truly nailed this thread.

Agree, Andy Coley is just the type of prop we don't have and need IMO. (mind you that could apply to a lot of other fwds to)
Little harsh comparing Wigan to our current mob.

Still, for Larry B's arguments for Luluai over Dobson, I'd rather have Dobson.

Coley looks good in a good side, put him our team and he'd stand out as the penalty machine he undoubtedly is. Its easy to shine in a good side. How many players do you see move from a champion side and look average at best.