On a related point, did Hull CC have any money invested with icelandic banks before they went pop?

At this juncture, everybody should just stand back and give three cheers to Mild Rover. Great work Squire.

What profits are we on about? HKR have failed to get anywhere near breaking even, so I think talk of profits is laughable.
The directors of the club should fund any improvements, at the end of the day it would be them( the owners of this private company) who would stand to benefit if the club ever managed to become a viable venture.

Ok take a cut of the income the North Stand brings in, that ok Bubbashrimp?

Anyhow Jake the peg and I have managed to come to an arrangement, take your negativity elsewhere.

A 10k average crowd would see us break even and even start making inroads on the debt. Add to that the facilities a new stand could provide, the fact we don't need a complete new build stadium like other clubs do and the fact it would further help develop an area very much on the cc's priority list for regeneration, and you have a very viable and attractive project for them to invest in that wouldn't cost the earth.

Realistically no one should expect a new ground, or even the council to bankroll all the work on the current one, but as I said earlier there's no harm in seeing what arrangements can be made, and the petition might be asking for alot of things, but if all it does is raise the issue a little higher and demonstrates the strength of feeling, for me it's done its job.

Interesting arguments all round, wether we should get any cash in these times is a fair debate & as I dont pay rates in Hull its nothing to do with me, but one point should be made to those who say public money should not be used to help private companys. That is what the councils/goverment are elected to do! help in every way possible to ease the way for companys & people to prosper. They are our sevants we pay for them they in theory should do as they are told by thier employers, I wont hold my breath though.

the role of a government is not to waste money on tin pot financially failing sports clubs like Hull KR when the whole economy is in debt thanks to a previous government that most people in hull would have voted for. You reap what you sow.

The arguments about what goverments spend cash on is always valid & just that an argument. But my point is valid the governments & councils job is to do what the voters tell them (that is not the same as doing the correct thing) they dont, but if enough people in Hull make enough noise they may get there wish if the labour try & buy votes off the lib dems. I do think though that it would be quiet correct for the council to spend money on sports clubs (tin pot or not) helping small or large firms to prosper just as long as the voters back them. It might help if they could afford it.

Yep.

I hope that wasn't too subtle.

So Hull City are a West Hull only team?



You're really not grasping the raison d'etre of the KC stadium, are you?



Aye, most people in Hull can, as well as giving easy access to those coming off the Clive Sullivan Way - that's why it was built there.... as a facility benefiting the whole of Hull.



You are joking, aren't you? What populace of East Hull, never mind all of Hull are "local" to the New CP? It actually takes less time - and is far more convenient with less walking - for me (a West Hull resident) to get via coach to many Super League grounds than to navigate the nightmare using public transport that a journey to your place entails. Your 30 min bus journey and a 15-20 min walk is a dream of a journey to most contemplating a trip to the New CP.





It's the back of beyond, mate. Realistically, how many other prime community locations should the Council consider BEFORE Craven Park?




Ah - the crux of the matter.

Can Rovers afford this? Is not the reason they need the council input in the first place that they need to increase their crowds? They are placing all the eggs in the basket of the improvements doing this. If they don't (and your crowds are dropping even though your capacity is not reached) then you may have negotiated a white elephant here. No significant progress towards the 10K Hudge has stressed is the minimum break-even target before the board get cold feet and call time, and a new drain of funds to the council to boot.

Be careful what you wish for.

Still loving the fact FC fans hate that we are in SL .

Computer swallowed my reply to this. Here are the highlights:

Licensing criteria - Cas, Salford, Wakefield. Covered seating at CP currently sold out. Deal structured on similar principles to Hull FC's at KC would limit Rovers' exposure - and also the benefit they might receive, admittedly.

You keep repeating the point on covered seating but this doesn't change the fact that gates are actually down vs 2008 and 2009 despite 2 years of play-off calibre performances. Does this not concern you in the slightest?

No, it does somewhat. However it is my belief that improved facilities help attendances. There is a decent amount of precedent for this elsewhere in SL I believe. On my rare trips to CP, I see that the East and West stands are essentially full, the much maligned South is shut, leaving me with a choice of the Well and the North stand, which are both open to the elements. I choose the well, because if it rains, I prefer to stand.
There are all sorts of other factors that will influence attendance - on field performances (or maybe the level of hope/anticipation), the wider economy etc, but improved facilities is bound to be positive. The scale of that benefit is difficult to predict - but even if it was a complete white elephant, the RFL is demanding clubs improve.

We're discussing attendances on the FC board ATM and there are only 4 of 14 clubs with increasing attendances this year - Hull FC, Wigan, Warrington and Crusaders, with the biggest decrease at Bradford and Catalans, so a very clear correlation with on the pitch performances in the short term. Got to be a worry for the RFL.

True, but I think the rise in attendances have been one of the great achievements for RL in the last decade. As a demographic, RL fans are not always awash with positivity and the increases aren't uniform - but only Bradford have gone backwards in a big way, and that is recent and for obvious reasons.

Clubs that have improved the most tend to have been those with good/improved facilities. There are other factors at play of course.

The argument against the council funding it - I can see that. The argument that it wouldn't be good for Rovers - hmmm. Let's be honest, if it was going to be that bad most of the Hull fans on here would be all for it and pushing us down the gangplank.

Disagree. Only 3 teams have won the competition in the last 11 years and all have poor grounds IMO. The tipping point for Warrington's upturn in form was getting Tony Smith in. The point here is not that it's not a good thing for Rovers to upgrade their facilities - the 8,000 or so regulars will have some cover and maybe a seat if that's what they want. It's that Rovers are already pretty successful in the competition but are consistently 2,000 short of capacity. FC's resurgence in gates has been enabled by the KC, (and as importantly by improvements on the pitch in 2004-2007), but AFAIK only takes attendances up to what was approximately the maximum in the club's heyday. Have Rovers ever consistently averaged more than 10k? No idea, but would be interested to see the numbers (as always

)

Let's leave aside for the moment the obvious contribution a new stand would bring to the licence application, and look at this from a purely financial point of view.

A scheme where the Council would take a cut of the income from the stand could completely undermine the fundamental reason for it's construction in the first place. Hudge has publicly asserted that for Hull KR to remain a viable business proposition crowds need to increase to at least 10,000 to generate the sort of income necessary for the board to prevail.

Campaigners are asserting that the way to do this is to build a sparkly new covered stand.

=#000040The question is: Will this [idefinitely[/i produce the desired increase in crowds?

If "yes", and the extra 2000 use the new stand and Rovers keep all the newly generated income than Hudge and the board are happy.

If "yes", and the extra 2000 use the new stand but the council take, say, half of the newly generated income than Hudge and the club are still well short of target, and still in a potentially non-viable position.

If "no", and 2000 of the 8000 regulars merely shift their position from, say, the Well to the shiny new stand cos it's nicer, but Rovers keep all the profit from the new stand then the board is in the same position as they are now - perilous.

But - and this worst case scenario is likely if crowds do not significantly increase as anticipated - 2000 of the 8000 regulars shift their position to the new cool stand and the Council are taking, say, half of the income from those 2000 regulars (from whom Rovers previously solely benefited) then that would be a financial disaster with completely the opposite effect to that hoped for.

So, to reiterate the question, are you absolutely certain that the new stand would generate the necessary 2000 crowd uplift? Because if not, or even if so but the Council have a share, this would be a White Elephant of dangerous proportions.

Could this be why Humberside are claiming Rovers have distanced the club from this campaign?

Any right minded human would distance themselves from the campaign, it is utter rubbish. Too much to do now that the School Holidays are here. The kids programmes take over the tv leaving these scratters with nothing to watch so they get a smartprice notepad from Asda and decide they are going to look for other ways to get a handout

Those same arguments would also apply, probably more so, to Cas', Wakefield's and Salford's endeavours to get new/improved facilities - do you think them similarly unwise.



What is your rationale for ignoring what to me seems to be a very pertinent point?



You have to be extremely risk averse to be absolutely certain of a positive outcome before doing anything - you'd never leave the house for fear of something bad happening. FWIW, I'd be pretty confident this would be positive. I don't think the club have distanced themselves, to use RH's words. More likely they chose not to openly endorse it because wheels are already in motion and it would have been impolitic.

Not ignoring the other beneficial aspects, just setting them aside in order to make this particular financial argument (most crucial from Rover's short-term perspective).

Fair enough, but we're both plucking models out of the air, chosen to suit our arguments. If something can't be found that the club believes to be to its benefit and that the council finds acceptable, it won't happen. I think they should be able to, from the incomplete information I have.
It may not by itself turn Rovers into a profit making organisation overnight, but IMO it would make them more sustainable (or less unsustainable, if your want to spin it negatively

) and give them a stronger platform on which to build.

If the council don't take a cut of income from the new stand (a scenario which is likely to have a negative impact on Rovers' coffers as described above) under what circumstances do you think it would be worth their while to fund the stand?

In other words, how could they sell this to the tax payers of Hull?

I would emphasize the the community benefits and what having two teams in SL brings to Hull.
If the council was a for profit organization I'll admit there would be better ways to get a £ return on their capital. But it isn't.

This was how plans for the North stand were introduced in 2008.
[urlhttp://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/localnews/Hull-KR-goes-for-more.3943858.jp[/url

Now that turned out to be overly optimistic as 5 months later:
[urlhttp://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4761892.ece[/url
Mind, it was probably Clint Newton's fault. Like a butterfly flapping its wings in the amazon, he didn't buy that ham and mushroom slice, unleashing a massive global financial storm. Chaos theory, innit?

ATEOD you won't get nowhere whilst your not selling out what you currentley have.

I'd support the idea of you having a new ground though, I just feel the way certain supporters have gone about it is absolutely pathetic. Your club has had attendances as low as 1000 average over the past 20 years, so you have no right to go demanding a new stadium on the back of a little bit of success.