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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"I think the above is correct and iirc Rovers don't pay their rent directly to HCC in any case. It all makes BDT's assertion about the council being miffed at Hudgys comments complete bollox as they clearly are not is possession of all the facts
 '"
I dont know what the split is between HCC and another owner. (do know that HCC control it though so must have some kind of larger share)
I also do know that the rent is way below what it would be if it were a privately owned ground being rented to Rovers. This effectively is a hand out, hense the reason the council were miffed about hudge's comments. I may not have been in possession of the facts regarding sole ownership of the stadium (and i await the facts if anyone has them) but i can guarantee you i'm 100% correct about the other points. Believe or not, i dont really care. |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"In that case it would seem then that your councilor mates need to brush up on their facts (and i bet they are hull fans)
 '"
I dont have any councillor mates thanks, i like to have trustworthy mates. 
I'm still waiting for you to provide me evidence of said multi-ownership as well as proof of any counter arguement about the rent etc?
The only article in the press i can find is one from 2000 when Rovers sold the ground to HCC and a consortium. Doesnt name the consortium. |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"I dont have any councillor mates thanks, i like to have trustworthy mates.
I'm still waiting for you to provide me evidence of said multi-ownership as well as proof of any counter arguement about the rent etc?
The only article in the press i can find is one from 2000 when Rovers sold the ground to HCC and a consortium. Doesnt name the consortium.'"
It was you making unfounded assertions that Rovers paid a pitiful rent to HCC. Where's your proof?? The consortium you refer to at the time was called Gaingroup and that is who Rovers pay their rent to iirc. |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"It was you making unfounded assertions that Rovers paid a pitiful rent to HCC. Where's your proof?? The consortium you refer to at the time was called Gaingroup and that is who Rovers pay their rent to iirc.'"
and are they still involved or is the stadium now 100% owned by the council? How would i have proof of something that ive never seen written down? I've had it on very good authority that it's the case. Can't say much more than that can i. Was just wondering where your proof was that it's not the case?
Forget Rovers pitiful rent anyway, i'm more interested to hear more about the ownership of Craven Park as it may be something i wasn't aware of. |
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Just found this:
09:30 - 19 June 2003
Hull KR's financial troubles started to make themselves felt back in 1997 and for almost three years accountants Price Waterhouse Coopers administered the running of the club. Towards the end of that period a consortium offered £500,000 for the club, and even that was shrouded in controversy as David Lloyd, the Hull Sharks owner, claimed his higher bid had been rejected.
Be that as it may, events reached a stage where the City Council and the Gaingroup (now called Kingston Community Development Ltd), the private consortium mentioned, agreed to purchase Craven Park from the adminstrators for £650,000.
The council paid £450,000 towards the cost of the ground and Gaingroup a further £200,000. The council leased their share of the ground to Gaingroup on a `250-year` lease.
It was then leased back to Hull KR for £30,000 a year plus vat on a `20-year` plan.
Former Hull City boss Don Robinson took over as chairman and a new board of directors was appointed. It was also agreed the consortium would provide a £100,000 cash injection for stadium and ground improvements.
That deal ended 12 months of uncertainty and speculation for the historic club.
Once agreement was reached it was stated the club would remain under close financial scrutiny for the next five years and press on with a Creditors Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to pay off £1.1m debts.
Since the initial agreement Don Robinson has left the board of Rovers when he was succeeded by Wayne Smith who has in turn been replaced by Colin McNicol.
If the RFL look at what clubs in the division owe or have borrowed I don't think they will let anybody go beyond 150k
taken from www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3702.html |
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Just found this:
09:30 - 19 June 2003
Hull KR's financial troubles started to make themselves felt back in 1997 and for almost three years accountants Price Waterhouse Coopers administered the running of the club. Towards the end of that period a consortium offered £500,000 for the club, and even that was shrouded in controversy as David Lloyd, the Hull Sharks owner, claimed his higher bid had been rejected.
Be that as it may, events reached a stage where the City Council and the Gaingroup (now called Kingston Community Development Ltd), the private consortium mentioned, agreed to purchase Craven Park from the adminstrators for £650,000.
The council paid £450,000 towards the cost of the ground and Gaingroup a further £200,000. The council leased their share of the ground to Gaingroup on a `250-year` lease.
It was then leased back to Hull KR for £30,000 a year plus vat on a `20-year` plan.
Former Hull City boss Don Robinson took over as chairman and a new board of directors was appointed. It was also agreed the consortium would provide a £100,000 cash injection for stadium and ground improvements.
That deal ended 12 months of uncertainty and speculation for the historic club.
Once agreement was reached it was stated the club would remain under close financial scrutiny for the next five years and press on with a Creditors Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to pay off £1.1m debts.
Since the initial agreement Don Robinson has left the board of Rovers when he was succeeded by Wayne Smith who has in turn been replaced by Colin McNicol.
If the RFL look at what clubs in the division owe or have borrowed I don't think they will let anybody go beyond 150k
taken from www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3702.html | |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"Not that old chestnut
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Now i refer you back to my point above this one. £30k per year rent is pitiful. |
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Quote ="Big Dave T"Just found this:
09:30 - 19 June 2003
Hull KR's financial troubles started to make themselves felt back in 1997 and for almost three years accountants Price Waterhouse Coopers administered the running of the club. Towards the end of that period a consortium offered £500,000 for the club, and even that was shrouded in controversy as David Lloyd, the Hull Sharks owner, claimed his higher bid had been rejected.
Be that as it may, events reached a stage where the City Council and the Gaingroup (now called Kingston Community Development Ltd), the private consortium mentioned, agreed to purchase Craven Park from the adminstrators for £650,000.
The council paid £450,000 towards the cost of the ground and Gaingroup a further £200,000. The council leased their share of the ground to Gaingroup on a `250-year` lease.
It was then leased back to Hull KR for £30,000 a year plus vat on a `20-year` plan.
Former Hull City boss Don Robinson took over as chairman and a new board of directors was appointed. It was also agreed the consortium would provide a £100,000 cash injection for stadium and ground improvements.
That deal ended 12 months of uncertainty and speculation for the historic club.
Once agreement was reached it was stated the club would remain under close financial scrutiny for the next five years and press on with a Creditors Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to pay off £1.1m debts.
Since the initial agreement Don Robinson has left the board of Rovers when he was succeeded by Wayne Smith who has in turn been replaced by Colin McNicol.
If the RFL look at what clubs in the division owe or have borrowed I don't think they will let anybody go beyond 150k
taken from www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3702.html'"
So the council get a return on their 'investment', KCD get a return on their 'investment' and Rovers get a fixed price rental agreement for 20 years.
Everyone's a winner |
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Quote ="Big Dave T"Just found this:
09:30 - 19 June 2003
Hull KR's financial troubles started to make themselves felt back in 1997 and for almost three years accountants Price Waterhouse Coopers administered the running of the club. Towards the end of that period a consortium offered £500,000 for the club, and even that was shrouded in controversy as David Lloyd, the Hull Sharks owner, claimed his higher bid had been rejected.
Be that as it may, events reached a stage where the City Council and the Gaingroup (now called Kingston Community Development Ltd), the private consortium mentioned, agreed to purchase Craven Park from the adminstrators for £650,000.
The council paid £450,000 towards the cost of the ground and Gaingroup a further £200,000. The council leased their share of the ground to Gaingroup on a `250-year` lease.
It was then leased back to Hull KR for £30,000 a year plus vat on a `20-year` plan.
Former Hull City boss Don Robinson took over as chairman and a new board of directors was appointed. It was also agreed the consortium would provide a £100,000 cash injection for stadium and ground improvements.
That deal ended 12 months of uncertainty and speculation for the historic club.
Once agreement was reached it was stated the club would remain under close financial scrutiny for the next five years and press on with a Creditors Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to pay off £1.1m debts.
Since the initial agreement Don Robinson has left the board of Rovers when he was succeeded by Wayne Smith who has in turn been replaced by Colin McNicol.
If the RFL look at what clubs in the division owe or have borrowed I don't think they will let anybody go beyond 150k
taken from www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3702.html'"
So the council get a return on their 'investment', KCD get a return on their 'investment' and Rovers get a fixed price rental agreement for 20 years.
Everyone's a winner | |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"Now i refer you back to my point above this one. £30k per year rent is pitiful.
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Personally i'd say it was too high for what is a pretty dismal stadium with fairly poor facilities. |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"So the council get a return on their 'investment', KCD get a return on their 'investment' and Rovers get a fixed price rental agreement for 20 years.
Everyone's a winner
'"
At a pitiful rate. That was my point i think. (ive kind of lost track of what my point was actually going to be) |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"Personally i'd say it was too high for what is a pretty dismal stadium with fairly poor facilities.'"
Personally i'm also trying to work out how a £650k investment and then charging £30k per year for 20 years is good business for the owners of craven park, by my maths that will only get them £600k back in 20 years and still be down not even counting interest.
Surely this backs up the pitiful rent and the lenience shown towards KR by the miffed council officials? |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"Personally i'm also trying to work out how a £650k investment and then charging £30k per year for 20 years is good business for the owners of craven park, by my maths that will only get them £600k back in 20 years and still be down not even counting interest.
Surely this backs up the pitiful rent and the lenience shown towards KR by the miffed council officials?
'"
Do your sums again their investment was only £300k |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"Do your sums again their investment was only £300k
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Says above the council put in 450k and gaingroup put in 200k. Hows that 300k? |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"Says above the council put in 450k and gaingroup put in 200k. Hows that 300k?'"
Rovers landlords paid £200k plus £100k invested in ground improvements. |
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Quote ="Gordon Gekko"Rovers landlords paid £200k plus £100k invested in ground improvements.'"
Edit, ive re-read what youve said.
Rovers landlords gain group put in 200k towards buying Craven park, i agree. Hull City council also put in 450k and then leased their share back to gaingroup for rent. This meant that gain group were and are effecitively paying off 650k. They also invested 100k for ground improvements.
Whatever happens the sale of craven park was £650k, the return on that is 30k per annum which means it's a pitiful rent.
Oh and i found this.
www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 17196.html |
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Quote ="Gordon Gekko"Rovers landlords paid £200k plus £100k invested in ground improvements.'"
Edit, ive re-read what youve said.
Rovers landlords gain group put in 200k towards buying Craven park, i agree. Hull City council also put in 450k and then leased their share back to gaingroup for rent. This meant that gain group were and are effecitively paying off 650k. They also invested 100k for ground improvements.
Whatever happens the sale of craven park was £650k, the return on that is 30k per annum which means it's a pitiful rent.
Oh and i found this.
www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 17196.html | |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"So are you saying that Rovers sold Craven Park for 200k and not the 650k reported?'"
No i'm saying the £30k rent Rovers pay goes to their landlords. Their landlords are not HCC. |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"No i'm saying the £30k rent Rovers pay goes to their landlords. Their landlords are not HCC.'"
See my point above. The 30k goes to Rovers landlords, who then have their own rent to pay to HCC for the share that HCC have leased back to the landlords. 30k does not cover the borrowing so is therefore very favourable for rovers. |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"See my point above. The 30k goes to Rovers landlords, who then have their own rent to pay to HCC for the share that HCC have leased back to the landlords. 30k does not cover the borrowing so is therefore very favourable for rovers.'"
The lease to KDC is for 250 years and providing Rovers stay at the stadium it remains a very good long term investment for the council who will still retain ownership of the land when the lease expires.
The council now have a great opportunity to reinforce their initial investment in CP by helping to improve facilites both in the immediate area and to the stadium itself making it a community based facility for the residents of east hull in pretty much the same way the KC is in west hull. Funding is available from many sources as you know.
As for being favourable to Rovers, Hull have had plenty of help from HCC also, including the ridiculous purchase of the Boulevard for way over the market value. So let those without sin cast the first stone |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"The lease to KDC is for 250 years and providing Rovers stay at the stadium it remains a very good long term investment for the council who will still retain ownership of the land when the lease expires.
The council now have a great opportunity to reinforce their initial investment in CP by helping to improve facilites both in the immediate area and to the stadium itself making it a community based facility for the residents of east hull in pretty much the same way the KC is in west hull. Funding is available from many sources as you know.
As for being favourable to Rovers, Hull have had plenty of help from HCC also, including the ridiculous purchase of the Boulevard for way over the market value. So let those without sin cast the first stone
'"
If you look at leasehold deals for any other business they would expect as a minimum the entire sum back in 20-25 years. That's not the case here. I agree FC have maybe had some favour previously too. Going back to my original point though about rovers rent been pitiful, i think we can now agree that's the case.
I think you can also see why the people at HCC were miffed with Hudge's comments about handouts etc.
You could also argue here that 650k is way over what the asking price for the dump known as craven park should have been too. |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"If you look at leasehold deals for any other business they would expect as a minimum the entire sum back in 20-25 years. That's not the case here. I agree FC have maybe had some favour previously too. Going back to my original point though about rovers rent been pitiful, i think we can now agree that's the case.
I think you can also see why the people at HCC were miffed with Hudge's comments about handouts etc.
You could also argue here that 650k is way over what the asking price for the dump known as craven park should have been too.
'"
I'm not sure Hudgy's comments were about handouts in any case, they were about investment, two wholly different issues. Rovers are suffering from a lack of facilities and a little further investment of public money into a area deprived of investment, using CP as a focal point could be a wise move long term for both parties. So i suggest the 'people ot HCC' who were miffed take their FC blinkers off and look at the bigger picture.
As for returns on leases I doubt the council will have the whole of their £53m+ investment back on the KC in 20 years do you??
Also HCC didn't pay £650k did they, they paid £450k and will probably recoup a hell of a lot more if they had a little foresight. |
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| Quote ="Gordon Gekko"
As for returns on leases I doubt the council will have the whole of their £53m+ investment back on the KC in 20 years do you??
Also HCC didn't pay £650k did they, they paid £450k and will probably recoup a hell of a lot more if they had a little foresight.'"
Not sure to be honest, Hull City and Hull FC pay a hell of a lot more rent for KC than Rovers do for craven park, i'd hazard a guess that with 2 clubs there the 53mill wont be far off been paid off in 20-25 years.
Yes HCC paid 450k, but with the other company putting in 200k there is still 650k of repayments to make.
I'd be wary if i was any investor of putting cash into a club losing money hand over fist that cant sustain itself. I wonder how HCC could justify it to locals when there isn't a decent return. Rovers can feel lucky to not be paying nearer to 70-80k per year rent imo, but then that wouldnt help the debt and sustainablilty of the business would it. |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"Not sure to be honest, Hull City and Hull FC pay a hell of a lot more rent for KC than Rovers do for craven park, i'd hazard a guess that with 2 clubs there the 53mill wont be far off been paid off in 20-25 years.'"
I very much doubt the SMC will net £2m+ profit per year
Quote ="Big Dave T"Yes HCC paid 450k, but with the other company putting in 200k there is still 650k of repayments to make.'"
With £600k in rental payment made within the first 20 years of a 250 yer lease.
Quote ="Big Dave T"I'd be wary if i was any investor of putting cash into a club losing money hand over fist that cant sustain itself. I wonder how HCC could justify it to locals when there isn't a decent return. Rovers can feel lucky to not be paying nearer to 70-80k per year rent imo, but then that wouldnt help the debt and sustainablilty of the business would it.'"
HCC wouldn't be putting any cash into Rovers they would be investing in facilities that they part own on land that they own outright which would enable Rovers as the only pro sporting club in that area to expand its business thus further develop interest in community facilities for the residents of east hull. (fook me i sound like a politician )
I personally don't see why anyone would be against that as a point of principle. After all isn't that what has happened to City and FC??? and before anyone asks i'm not suggesting a second £53m super stadium either!!!!! |
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