pathetic you lot you know that don't you? Same as the thread on VT Barrow fans try to wind Widnes up and when get a reaction call us arrogant and say that's why other clubs hate us? Haha, great stuff... Well done!

You have lingered in the Championship yourself for long enough...............Remind us why again ?

I would have thought that Widnes fans would understand resentment more than anybody else. No, Widnes didn't make the rules, but neither did Celtic Crusaders, Catalan Dragons or Paris St. Germain. Sadly, there seems to be a number of Widnes fans on these forums that seem to have forgotten how it felt to be RFL's ideal and are now coming across in exactly the same way as some of the pompous super league fans you would previously be fighting your case against on the VT.

Ever since the last round of franchises, I've assumed that as long as SOC stuck around it would be a no-brainer to put Widnes in SL, purely because you are one of the strongest 14 clubs. However, there is no divine right to be there, and the first year could be particularly difficult as the gap from 5th in the Championship to Super League is huge.

No-one's forgotten!!! Unfortunately Widnes fans are now having to contend with the same level of resentment from other Championship clubs that the teams you mentioned above had to deal with when they were placed into SL. Also you will notice that most of the arguments are generated by people coming on here or other boards and spouting stuff about how we don't 'deserve' to be in SL.

I make no apologies whatsoever for attempting to defend my team against such vitriol...

This is complete bullsh*t and you know it!

Widnes are not the favourites because they are the darlings of the RFL. We see what you see:

This admission shows just how pathetic your little rant was.

Believe me, if Widnes don’t get a licence for 2012, no other heartland club ever will again. It would mean that our bid would have to be bettered sometime in the future. Given what Widnes have in place, this would be a massive ask. That would mean that the ladder is pulled up for good, for us all. At least, should Widnes get a licence, there is atill hope for the rest and there would be a standard and a target set.

None of what I say is arrogance because you must know what I am saying is true. This makes all the talk about us Widnes fans thinking that we have some divine right to Super League, look ridiculous. If we didn’t have a strong bid there wouldn’t be anyone demanding a licence ahead of those who do. The people who think they have a divine right to SL are those who demand SL despite the obvious short-comings of their clubs when compared to others – see Barrow fans for details.


The gap from the Championship, wherever you finish, is huge. So huge, as to make where you finish almost irrelevant.

What really matters is how close a club can get to the SL salary cap and sustain this level of investment over the years. For that, you need the infrastructure, Sponsors/financial backing, Stadia, crowds and youth structure. Widnes are the only club to have all this in place, within the Championship, now.

The two clubs which got the nod ahead of us last time didn’t have what we have and have struggled as a result. Salford have spent the last two years bumbling along the bottom of SL trying to save money by not spending to the cap, so they can have a desperate push in the last season of the current licence agreement. Celtic Crusaders couldn’t even get through one season before the RFL had to send in a team of trouble shooters to try and save them. They, in essence, no longer exist. These two clubs contested the Grand Final. So being at the top of the Championship isn’t a good indicator of how well a club will fair in Super League for 3 years, without the safety net of relegation.

I know that Widnes would struggle in it's first season back in SL. That would be the way of it for any team newly promoted. It's what they can bring to the table after that which counts. Improving your on-field performance can be as simple as recruiting a new coach – see Wigan and Wire for details.

There’s no doubt in my mind that posts like yours, and the looney Barrow fans on this thread, are motivated by on thing – the green eyed monster!

Before you call me arrogant, don’t forget who said that giving Widnes a licence was “a no-brainer.”

Instead of coming on here spouting the same, boring, old, ill thought out platitudes, that they trot out on the VT, try thinking.

No one will ever get SL from the Championship if Widnes fail...???????
I was half agreeing with you until then, there can be and WILL be stronger bids than your current one in the future. Other clubs will gain the infrastucture, backing and youth policies that work but it will take time and effort. The difference will be the achievements on the field. For me your application is weak in this department 1 NRC cup and mid table places can and will be improved on.
I agree you have the best application for the franchise, however it is not the best that can be.

Your rant does smack of arrogance if you can not see that.

SOSs how do you work that out? Look at all Champ clubs... Ate they going to add 1000 to crowds? 2mill to turnover? Build new stadiums (bar Leigh) and set up a youth structure that beats SL sides weekly?

I hope Widnes are the framework for future bids but i fail to see how another bid from current Champ sides could be stronger! On field maybe but then the other parts? Highly unlikely on current form!

<SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGH> some people really do need to grow up and deal with the realities of the current system. instead of childishly and pathetically railing against Widnes. we did not create this situation. if you want to spout misinformed, childish, out right ignorent crap about us somehow being the bad guys then do it on your own teams boards. because firstly, we dont care as we actually know the realities of the current system rather than ranting about the way things 'should be' and secondly as a result of the aforementioned you are wasting your obviously copius time having a go on here.

I will wait to comment on the books when the accounts are officially posted as that has been done to death. As for crowds we all have a catchment areas; with good rugby on the pitch and advertising I can see certainly my club achieving well above 2500 average. Again this will not happen over night.
If you read it properly I said in the future. Why shouldn't clubs be able to better Widnes in the application process? How long ago was it that Widnes were in Administration? 2007..and only survived due to SOC dragging the club out of the mire. Widnes have come on leaps and bounds since then through the backing of SOC and a great financial structure.
My point is that you are not unique in this league. There are clubs with their very own SOC's waiting in the wings.

Post note...I am not slaggin Widnes off; I am agreeing that you have the strongest bid and by that should go to SL. What I am saying is that your bid is not the strongest that can be submitted and it is my opinion that stronger bids will be submitted in the future. This is a first pass from this league and Widnes HAVE laid a benchmark.

So, which current Champioship club will be able to put in place a bid, that betters the one Widnes are likely to put forward, in the foreseeable future?


- Top internationally recognised Sponsors/ wealthy owners
- £2.5 million turn over/£1million profit
- The ability to play up to the cap level in SL
- Attendances 3,000+
- Full youth system/8 homegrown players in squad and 11 used in one season. u16’s & u18’s playing in the top groupings and beating almost all before them. Reserve side doing well and a top service area.
- Community set up and player education pathways
- A known average attendance level in SL of 7,000 (That achieved while being relegated)
- Stadium with state of the art facilities such as top class gym/briefing rooms with individual player camera search capability, chill-out rooms, media area for TV and areas for journalists to write reports with online facility and top class physio and treatment rooms – all state of the art. These do not necessarily come with a new stadium; they are very expensive additions to the infrastructure.

Several Super League sides cannot match this, never mind Championship clubs!

I’ll have a bet with you that this will not be bettered on every poin - not just one or two points but every point - by any heartland clubs in the next 3 licence applications from the Championship. Name your price and we’ll arrange a place to hold the cash until 2018 and then donate it to the charity of choice of the one who is right.

Not true, The were two other bids for the club after admistration. One of those bids was from Jim Quin, who is nearly as wealthy as SOC.


But they are unlikely to have the head start already offered to SOC. Our club already had much of what we have now in place, so he was able to take things to the next level very quickly. Only Leigh are even close to this position; they don’t match it, but they are the most likely.

Yes I believe it will be beaten..Thats my opinion and I fail to see why you can not accept that? You dont need to have the best application ever submitted, you need the best application for 2012 which you have! So why is it so hard for you to accept that imo, while you are enjoying your SL games that another club from the Championship could submit a stronger application than the one that gained you SL? (should you be chosen)
After all as I said before Widnes have managed to come out of admistration and within 5 years become the most financialy viable team in the Championship, so why can that not happen for other clubs?

By the way the more you rant on the more arrogant you are looking mate.

anyway thats it as I'm starting to repeat myself...Well done Widnes and if the RFL follow the rules they have laid down it should be a cakewalk to SL for you.
Im sure once back there you will become stronger each year.

Only because you cannot understand what I am trying to tell you. Your post shows it clearly that you have not understood me at all.


Because if Widnes fail to get a licence for 2012, even though we have the best application – your words not mine – what do you think that will do to potential investors in Championship clubs and fans wanting to believe that there is a genuine pathway to SL?

What message would that send out to clubs about running expensive youth set ups?

They may as well just give up trying.



Like I said, should Widnes get a licence, it sets the standard for other clubs to follow, shows that there is actually a pathway to SL for Championship clubs, and may well actually see a club bettering Widnes’ 2012 bid. It’s the impact upon the Championship should Widnes not get the licence that could cause a problem imo.

I’m not saying another CC club couldn’t achieve it, it's just that if the best application, and a dammed good one at that, is rejected then what incentive is there for the Championship clubs if the trap door has clearly been firmly closed behind the heartland clubs for good?

It has nothing to do with arrogance. It will also see the end of Widnes as a future SL club as well.

The way the Championship is going it is unlikely any club will offer a better bid than Widnes do now. Crowds are only going one way and Widnes' are larger and traditionally have been than all the clubs currently in the league.

Like Pepe said, if we get left out we'll very probably not offer a bid as good as we do now.

I'd disagree there Max , we have a salary cap , we've had that cap long before the ending of P and R , this year Widnes have not performed on the pitch , now I'd guess that you have spent within 90 % of the salary cap , I'm sure Steve O connor would have prefered and did indeed hope and expect you to have done better in the league , yes you will argue that it doesn't matter and that is true

So with the salary cap we have the only way to do better would be to shall we say ' find a way of paying players differently '

To his credit it would seem that Mr O connor has not gone down that route

At the end of the day we play in a very good even competition , hopefully next year will be the same , but with once again different winners

All the best

But this is my point, a return to P & R with this salary cap would be ludicrously unfair on a team like Widnes. We've never had P & R where all the teams spend the same amount on their teams. At the end of the day we are a professional sport and a league with promotion and relegation where every team can afford the cap doesn't make any sense. It massively favours teams with low crowds and small revenue and hinders teams with large revenue and bigger crowds.

With the cap at this level we could see Hunslet being promoted next year and Wigan or Leeds getting relegated. Leeds and Wigan would then stand the same 1 in 10 chance of being promoted as the other clubs paying the cap level.

So what you are saying is we should get rid of the salary cap in the Championships only ? , then naturally you will want it removing from SL as well ?

I'm sure you remember where that led us ?

It's not the same thing, there would be much more riding on the Championship than Super League.

For a start the cap is at a level where not all teams can spend up to it. Also it serves a slightly different purpose. In making the league more equal it strengthens the competition which should raise crowds. This is the current idea behind the Championship model as well. It works when there is only a title to be won. If we had P & R there would be far more riding on it.

I'm not advocating a total abandonment of it, just stating that a £300k cap with P & R would be ludicrous. Why should Widnes with the biggest crowds and most revenue only be allowed to be given an equal chance to be promoted, with all the benefits that brings, as Batley? If people are so bothered about it being about what happens on the pitch then surely clubs would be allowed to use what they have off the pitch to dominate on the pitch. If not we may as well become an amateur sport below SL where nobody pays anything.

I'm stating that most people who suggest a return to P & R haven't actually thought about the reality of what a return would mean, which in all likelihood would be Widnes dominating the division on the pitch.

Why should Leeds and W1g4n with the biggest crowds and most revenue only be allowed to be given an equal chance to to be the champions, as Salford

It works both ways Max

Do we really want a situation as we now have in football , where if one club can for whatever reason attract a billionaire businessman , they can buy a team of internationals , and dominate the competition , we are just now in both SL and the Championships having a situation where this year clubs that have not finished top are now doing so , last years winners in both competitions have finished 4 th this year ?

I am not happy with the cap in the Championship and like it to go upto £600,000 so Widnes can dominate.I like winning easily against the poor supported Batley teams etc.



Then i wont here the crap like we are the worst team to be promoted,because we are 5th in the league.

You're up early for school

Ah, excellent. Somebody has responded to a post of mine by taking the time to split it into little sections, disect it and feel that I was looking for an argument. I feel i've made it!

I wasn't saying that you are RFL darlings, but you that are one of the 14 teams that the RFL want to and will put in in 2012. As I said previously, you should be one of super league clubs in 2012, but what has caused the resentment is the way the RFL have yet again managed to turn the whole system into a farce. Why not announce your promotion now, that would mean you can announce things like your Super League season ticket prices, oh hang on...

I gave the examples of Catalans, Celtic and Paris, to remind you that the whole concept of franchising is an emotive one and can lead to resentment, and Widnes fans should know this more than anyone.

To say that no club outside super league will ever submit a better bid than yours is incredibly arrogant in my opinion, and you compare me with the "looney Barrow fans" with the green eyed monster, but the point of my post was to point out why there may be resentment towards the way this round of franchises have been managed, rather than say Widnes don't deserve a franchise.

It's not a difficult thing to do and it allows one to address each point clearly.


If it’s all the RFL’s fault, why are you crying at Widnes fans?

So Widnes are no better than Celtic and Paris etc?


FFS another thick c*nt with an inability read and digest simple information – it's like hammering nails into metal. You have clearly missed the point I was making. It actually includes my own club you idiot!

It only appears arrogant to those who are too stupid to understand the scenario that I have put forward. Read it again and try to understand the context in which it that statement was put. I don’t have the inclination to explain it here, as I have already done that in a later post, and it is perfectly clear in the original post anyway.

The green-eyed monster in some wants desperately to believe that we are arrogant. It gives them something to get all angry about. Unlike the RFL, Widnes fans are here and available to take pot shots at.

Billy Smarts circus is not on this board.You are a top grade clown.

Bored of you now, and if i was a moderator i would ban you for been a turnip.