holdsworth is the most creative player we have.i would say hes created more tries than any other player in the team.thisdespite missing a fair few games with injury and with various halfback partners.his combination with horne was really working till both were injured.imo of course.then again some don't think hes good enough.fair enough,but whos realistically available?

Horne - 18 assists, 35 tackle busts, 11 clean breaks
Miller - 9 assists, 25 tackle busts, 4 clean breaks
Holdsworth - 17 assists, 4 tackle busts, 2 clean breaks

this for me highlights the problem with Holdsworth - he is a catch and pass player, he doesnt engage the line enough and give the defence any doubt as to what he is going to do - Horne and miller play at the line either putting people through or going themselves with conviction as it shows with the busts and breaks

I still disagree with the Sinfield comparison, not just on playing ability. Even when it's going against Leeds you can still see Sinfield actively trying to take control, and that's precisely what we're not getting from Holdsworth and my major question about what he offers. When we're having a bad time, the player's who seem to want the ball more are Heremaia, Miller, Horne, Whiting, and Westerman. Personally I just think that Holdsworth should be amongst that group but isn't.

We seemed to do a lot of tackling and I feel that is what has being the downfall of our attack. Slow PTB and a lightweight pack have also contributed to a lack of dummy runners due to the large work ethic in defence IMO.

Hopefully with a bit more punch coming in and a new conditioner it may be something Radders and the coaching staff can achieve.

I feel if we see that improve we will see more of Miller and Holdsworth.

Them stats tell you all you need to know really.

We should be looking at a Miller/Horne partnership next year.

Ok, let me try again. I don't think Holdsworth is like Sinfield, I just think he's more like him than he is Burrow. That's as far as the 'comparison' goes. Sinfield's strength is in his organisation, his passing and his kicking game. In Holdsworth's better games, he has also done well in these areas. He's even turned in a couple of MOM performances undertaking this role.



Perhaps that's true, but it's easy to see why he wouldn't want to continually receive slow ball in poor positions to then be clobbered by the opposition and castigated by fans. I agree that he needs to improve the consistency of his performances, but I think that'll happen a lot easier once he has a decent platform to work with.

OK, my turn to try again. I don't think it's a good comparison. 1. Because I don't think Holdsworth does organise us enough, hence why we've been disorganised almost all year. 2. Because I don't think his passing is anything special, nothing more than adequate for a halfback (some of his passing from dummy-half this year has made Houghton look world class).

Where we simply disagree on a fundamental level is when you say that Burrow is more eye-catching than Sinfield. If you know what you're looking at, no he isn't, and particularly when his team and pack are up against it because he then has less opportunity to shine whilst Sinfield is still clearly their main man trying to make things happen. That's my entire point about what I think Holdsworth isn't offering us, quality, leadership and guidance/composure when we most need it.

So basically, comparing him to Sinfield highlights my problem with rather than makes an allowance for him, as just because he doesn't run with the ball doesn't mean we should barely notice he's playing when we're not on top. That's certainly not typically the case with Sinfield, Brough, Briers, Dureau, or several others who play that sort of a role for their teams.

You're joking, right? Brough and Briers are two of the worst culprits for being anonymous when they're on the back foot.

And didn't he only have one assist fewer than Horne this year?

They're less effective, yes, but I don't agree they get less involved or stop trying things. Look at Brough against Wigan, he was awful and kept making errors, but he was still trying to take control. That's what Holdsworth lacks IMO, and is the quality of which we are most in need.

And yes he did, but to be fair Horne also played less games in the halves.

I've seen both have games in the past where they go missing if things aren't going their way. Briers particularly.



The quality of trying stuff that's ineffective because we're being beaten in other areas? I don't think you can blame a half back for taking the wrong option if the only options he has are to pass it to a stationary player outside of him, or drop it off to Tickle on the inside. When the forwards are on top, Holsworth usually plays well or very well. When the forwards are being dominated (as ours often are) he's less effective. But then, so is Miller, he just looks busier whilst he's doing it.



Even so, everyone has raved about Horne's performances whilst Holdsworth has been widely panned. I fully accept that Horne has been better, but I don't think the difference is as vast as some are making out. I firmly believe that if we can sort out our ptb speed and Houghton can improve his distribution (big ifs, I know), Holdsworth will have a good season next year.

Of course it's happened sometimes, it will for all players. I said that it [itypically[/i isn't the case. Holdsworth did it for about the last month and a half of our season.



But he rarely only has just those 2 options. We're bad, but not quite that bad. He could throw a cut out pass to the winger, try taking the line on or drawing the defender before passing, or kick with a bit of purpose rather than a lot of hope. But he doesn't.



I've not panned Holdsworth. I've said that I think he should be better, but not that he's been poor (I don't think. If so, I retract going that far), and that in a direct comparison to Miller he doesn't seem to want to take charge as much, when as the supposed senior half I think he should. I haven't raved about Horne, either, just pointed out that he's been better as you've just agreed.

It's one of the most pathetic things I see on here when someone says a player/coach isn't good enough and is then someone else comes on and challenges them to name better. It's not my job to name anyone better. I don't have the contacts in the game, know enough about our playing budget, which players are or may be available, what transfer fee may be allotted and a host of other things. It's the management at the club's job to do these things, not mine

Have to agree.

I'd say it is typically the case with those two players. It doesn't happen as frequently these days because their forwards aren't dominated as often as ours. When Wire were in our position, Briers went missing all the time.



Taking the line on and drawing defenders only works if there are other attacking players in motion. All too often, there are not.



Didn't mean you personally necessarily, but I do think Holdsworth gets a rough ride on here and that the difference between his season overall and Horne's isn't as great as it's often made out to be.

For some reason I thought he got injured at Leeds. Never mind sack him!

A glowing endorsement, I'm sure.

For me to agree with jake, he must be right.

I'm always right but I did question myself for a nanosecond when I saw you'd agreed with me

Miller has very good potential and I hope he realises it with us. Had no preseason and still adapting to a new club, country and league. Only 20 so will only get better.

Holdsworth I am a fan of but, second half of the season he has been really poor. Needs to stamp his authority on the side more and run the ball more often. He's too predictable at the moment. He needs a pack going forward of course but he needs to be more consistent and take control of the attack.

Agree with that. Not had a great season injury wise though with the extended impact of head injury and the injury he traveled to France to get extra physio on in July.

Exactly what I'm trying to get at. Holdsworth's good when the game's going our way, but when it isn't he seems to do little to help try and change that, and in my opinion he should by one of those we can look to to do so.

Nah, it was a Meli special that did for him.

Look, we just don't agree about any of this so there's no point going back and forth. I don't agree those others also disappear in the same way as Holdsworth, I think you still see them trying to rally their teammates and tell them what they want. I don't agree there isn't a bit more Holdsworth can try. And I haven't said that I think Horne has been leagues ahead of Holdsworth, so I don't understand why you've brought that up with me.

hopefully we can see them both fire a bit more next year, on there day both can be very good, lets just hope there are afew more good days next year,

On their day is no longer enough. The new mantra is to be consistently good, which is quite right IMO.