Lee hasnt played halfback this season.

Thorman has created more this season than Tommy has ever done, Thorman kicking game is far better than lee's.

Lee is too slow with his decsion making and too big to play 7, his future should be in the pack, otherwise he will be playing NL in a couple of years.

I don't agree to this theory about Lee being stifled. To an extent maybe but he showed glimspes of real class now and again at 7. So when did produce these moments was it the coach giving him the nod or was he disobeying orders. I can't imagine a coach saying don't be creative to his SH.

The biggest problem is lazy players not pushing on every play, that would make our SH's job much easier but I can't see it changing with our playing personel.

He isnt given much by Agar.

Ive heard a little rumour that Horne will be FB anyway with Thorman still at 7. Its all about the gameplan for me, Thorman is a shoe in for the 7 shirt every game. We've got nothing else.

Where is it then? His kicking has been awful IMO. For someone with his experience he takes the wrong option so many times its just not funny. Thorman makes exactly the same mistakes Lee was making last season and is probably even worse for kicking early in the takle count when its just not on. I'm not for a minute suggesting Lee is a 7 (probably more of a 9/13 than anything) but Thorman was been worse than ordinary this season apart from 1 decent game at Bradford.

Whilst I agree to an extent his all round game has been really poor IMO. His passing is slow and is literally to the nearest man everytime. His long kicking has been no better than we have had for the last 10 years and his short kicking is more about luck than judgement, I'd say R.Horne has a better short kicking game.

I think its difficult to say tbh when the teams overall tactics are poor. We mis-use our forwards which means they cant lay the platform. We have an international hooker that plays for 10 minutes and then goes missing for 70. We have excellent outside backs that dont see the ball. We've scored a lot of tries from Thorman and Hornes short kicking game early in the season. We make too many mistakes meaning Thorman has to kick too often from deep. I think personally if Agar gets his tactics right we will see the best of Thorman. I saw enough of him early in the season to know that he isnt fantastic but he can do a job for us and we can challenge. Matthew Head and Adam Dykes both looked great when doing the basic easy things well, like passing it wide to Manu and Yeaman. Thorman can do that easily too but needs to be part of the game plan.

When we are on our game in the fowards then the halves and backs can score tries and be creative, the Cats and Bulls game showed that. Trouble is when we are not on our game we have nobody to try and lift and inspire the side and we are then bloody rubbish.

Agar needs to motivate and inspire in his Leadership/coaching. Where's the passion? he's a poor leader.

It cant be the gameplan that Thorman isn't allowed to throw a miss-out pass? Or a long flat pass to get it wider quicker? Or that his short kicks have to go to the wrong part of the in-goal area? TBH he is playing exactly like I expected him to, which is why I didn't want him in the first place but understood why the club took him for 1 year while they search for a genuine SH. If a genuine SH isn't signed for next season though I will be beyond P1ssed off

Where is the passion in anyone at our club, players and coaches. Players should not need too much motivating tbh, against Rovers we turned up for the last 25 mins and nearly won the bloody game

Do you think 5 drives and a kick isnt the gameplan?

Do you think 1 drive right, 1 drive left, 1 drive right, 1 drive left, 1 drive right and kick isnt what they go through in training?

After watching it for 10 games or so it cant just be an accident. If the gameplan was to throw a pass or two and Thorman didnt wouldnt Agar get the message out to him to do it?

Boring rugby consistently cannot be an accident.

The job of a leader like Agar is to build the team spirit, create a great environment etc that the players enjoy being part of which in turn leads to people wanting to play for each other which in turn leads to motivation etc too. If Agar has lost the dressing room because the players dont agree with his tactics i can understand their lack of motivation. It cant be very nice knowing that youre going to go out there and get beaten and then be given stick by the fans because your coach is a numpty.

So it seems you think that Thorman is struggling because of the team's deficiencies and tactics, but Berrigan's hit and miss form is his own fault then?

Not sure that's fair TBH. Strikes me as expecting less from players because they simply aren't as good, despite the fact that it's just as much down to them to produce the goods.

Thorman has gone missing just as much as Berrigan so far this season, you can usually find him hiding half a dozen yards behind the forward at 1st receiver from the PTB. Regardless of ability, tactics, etc, I personally just think the supposed focal point of the team should be a little bit more keen to get involved.

Fact is if a player is in the "red zone" and sees an overlap he will probably do what his instincts tell him. Unfortunately Thormans instincts usually entail kicking it (because his passing is woeful) when its not on and consequently our players are not ready for it. I'd imagine the boring 5 drives and a kick stuff is for working the ball away from our line and they have more freedom nearer the try line, we just dont have the personnel to do it.

They have different jobs though. My expectations of Thorman are that he spreads the ball about and he is coached not to. My expectation of Berrigan is that he plays like the world class hooker that he is and that he inspires his team mates etc.

I od have different expectations of each player because one is an average 7 and one is one of the top 3 or 4 hookers in the world.

Ive watched Thormans stupid goal line kicks and cant defend them. I can understand why he does it because their outside defence has come up quickly thus stopping the long pass, he just doesnt execute the kicks well on occasions and his team mates dont seem to know what he is doing. The only issue i have is his execution of the play not his decision making in the situations youre mentioning.

The 5 drives and a kick is in our own half yes, in their half we go for 3 drives and 2 predictable tight in plays followed by a poor kick. I dont blame any of the players even if i expect more from some of them. The blame from me sits entirely with Agar/Sharp and their tactics.

Really have to disagree on that point. The tactics worked fine for the first 5 games of the season. Its the players application of the tactics that has led to the current situation. It might not be pretty but it can win games if executed properly. TBH that sort of attitude is possibly why the players think they can just go through the motions.

Or possibly the rest of SL now know our game plan, better than we do!

But both rely on the forwards giving them space to work in to produce their best. Berrigan can't run from dummy half with the speed of out ptb, so is also shafted by events beyond his control. His passing has been below par I'll admit, but to suggest Thorman's poor performances are because he is coached that way is not remotely accurate IMO. He doesn't have the passing game to spread it wide IMO, and the 1 thing he definitely is coached to be responsible for is our kicking game, which is still not up to scratch as far as I can see. He seems to make the decision to kick through on a whim, rather than what's going on around him.

As for inspiring your teammates I think that's irrelevant of being world class or not. Thorman was trumpeted as a great talker and organiser, I'd say that that role had at least as much responsibility to inspire the team as Berrigan, who seems to have been labelled as some sort of leadership figure based purely upon his playing abilities, and I'm not sure how that works, personally.

I'm just not on board with the seemingly 'he's $h1t, he can't help it' approach viewing him as less worthy of criticism, and palming it off onto coaches whilst feeling fine about ripping into those who are more capable. If anything, I view the fact that our coaches can't get the best out of a proven top-notch hooker as more evidence of their deficiencies than his.

Knowing a gameplan and stopping it are 2 different things. I agree its not pretty and its not what I would choose but it can be effective if everyone does their job properly which they clearly haven't for the last half a dozen games or so.

For me, that's one of the biggest problems with it. To stand a chance of winning the way we play you pretty much need all 17 players to put in a virtually flawless performance for 80 minutes. This is hard no matter how good the players are. Every team makes errors, but the likes of Saints and Leeds try those low percentage plays and pull them off often enough to cancel out theirs.

Once errors creep into our game we are then dependent upon our opponents making more than us to get back into it.

Manu to start from the bench!!!

I just don't buy into this 'All Agar's fault', its clear you don't rate him and have placed all the blame firmly at his door. I agree to an extent that he has to take responsibility for tactics and team spirit. However players also have to be able to movtivate themselves as professionals and be prepared to turn up and play. The best performance this season bar none was Bulls away where we played with enterprise and players pushed through holes and Thorman was truly outstanding and probably along with Manu the difference between the sides. So this is evidence that we can get it right, in fact we got it right a lot early on in the season, not always with great rugby but we were winning armwrestles against the likes of Wigan, Hudds and Celtic. Had we have been more ruthless we could have won all have those by more comfortable margins.

Had we have kicked our goals we would have beaten Cas, Quins was just an awful game and we were outplayed in the 2nd half. The CC game was strange as we scored good tries but again only played in fits and starts. The derby saw us start on the back foot from the kickoff which is hardly Agar's fault and then we could not get out of our half for a while, our best attacking play came from offloads and the second phase possession resulted in a try. Had we have turned up for the game we could have won it easily, Rovers did not play that well. Again is this the coach or the players or do they share the responsbility?

Saints we were blown away by a much better side and Wakey we lost the armwrestle in a game we should really have won.

Looking back I think Agar has made mistakesand should be encouraging more offloads from the forwards for the likes of Berro and Horne to utilise. He should also be telling Thorman to take a tackle instead of putting boot to ball when he has no options. However players also have to be held accountable, Tickle should not be kicking it dead etc.

It suits people to blame the coaches but the players have as much to answer for in my eyes.

Only if the opposition make no errors either. I agree its not a gameplan that wins anything, particularly over a long season, but it would have won us at least another 3 games this season with a bit more effort/enthusiasm from the players IMO. The biggest problem is that you very rarely win a game with those tactics if dont play well, whereas a better gameplan can win games when the team aren't performing.

Mine too. Agree 100%.

Snag is if some of the players don't have the basic quality to perform at an acceptable level week in and week out then it becomes very difficult for a coach. Peter Sharp would tell you the same. We've certainly missed our injured/visaless internationals this year. We have guys who cant catch and cant pass to the required level often enough. Shouldn't be required to be coached at this level - is Potter coaching Gidley, Pryce and Long how to catch and pass ? - I think not.

A mixture of poor recruitment (Sharp specifically) and an over reliance on local youth that hasn't cut it I'm afraid. If the two internationals can get their visas and a couple of internationals get fit we will see a huge difference in our team's ability to perform the basics and we will improve. Agar should be judged then and not until.