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| Quote ="BarnetFC"Without getting all wishy washy and deep thinking about it - it's the culture letting Radford down, and he's part of it.
We've changed the owner, we've changed the coach, we've gone through several dozen players and the problems are the same. That tells me it's not an individual - although as Radford has followed this culture through as a player, coach and now head coach I don't see how he can possibly be the man to change it - but a collective culture that is the problem.
A culture is hard to quantify but the certain aspects and ingredients of it I see with our club are...
- we talk like a big club. It wasn't that long ago we had a dilapidated stadium (which we loved) and 5-6000 at home Super League games. I remember we won something like five of the first six around 1999 time and we subsequently got 7,000 in for Warrington at home (which we lost) and it was considered a big deal. The stadium, and the fantastic support, lulls us. We talk like it's inevitable that it will turn in our favour, and we don't have to work for it. We still blame referees. We don't fight for every point, fight for every loose ball. We concede penalties as if we won't be punished. We play out sets on opponent's lines expecting something to open up, without ever actually coming up with something brilliant ourselves to make it open up. Radford's "tactics" and this much vaunted "play book" we share with Doncaster (the poor bstrds) seem to be little more than "complete your set, get to the kick" and as long as our completion is high we'll win. It's like we're Hull FC, so they'll wave us in eventually. There's an arrogance. Paea said it when he signed, Hull FC are perceived as arrogant.
- We reward mediocrity. We pay excellent money to the players regardless of the results. When they fail, we pay them off - we have to, because no other club is stupid enough to pay them what we pay them. We pay players more than better clubs to get them here . Our geography works against us in that, but still. Tom Briscoe is paid less now at Leeds than he was here, because to play for Leeds is a big deal. It should be a blddy big deal to play for Hull. We should offer the same wage everybody else is offering and if they don't come, did we want that player anyway? Every year on here I see a clamour to get contracts renewed and in some cases I can see why but in most, why do we have that? These players are achieving nothing, every year. Why the rush to get new deals handed out? It can only be the fear that, like so many, they go somewhere else to a different culture and look alright and make us look daft. Why on earth would we be happy that we've rewarded Liam Watts with a new contract? He's been dog chocolate since he got here. A shadow of the player he was at HKR.
- We have a good portion of our squad, every year, commuting in, every day, from Leeds, Bradford and Castleford. We had a game postponed last year because of a traffic accident on the M62 which meant half our starting 13 was stuck on the motorway. You're representing Hull. You should live in Hull and breathe it like the people who pay your wages. It's not a big commitment to make, but then neither is tackling Scott Taylor 10 yards away from the line when you've got four team mates to help you and we can't do that either. Driving in, running about a couple of hours, driving back, driving in, losing 7-0 at home to Widnes, driving back. It's like a day job. And it needs to be so much more than that.
- The players know, as we saw with Gentle, that they can down tools and get the coach sacked if they don't like him much. Saw it with Kear, saw it with Sharp, saw it with Gentle. Whatever perceived mess Gentle left us in, I'd have been more inclined to stick with him after the Huddersfield debacle than not simply to show the players you are not downing tools and getting another coach the sack. Any coach who comes in here and says you're not drinking that much, you're not smoking that much, you live in the city that's paying your wages and it's not good enough to continue losing games as long as you keep the scores close knows that this group of players might down tools and he'll get the sack if they do - or at least that's what's happened before. They need the biggest rocket we can find shoved up them and they need the fires of hell burning inside them, but anybody who tries to do that to them might get the sack if they think he's a bit shouty or a bit hardline.
- lack of professionalism, on and off the field. The Catalans try at half time, the Castleford try straight from the start of the second half, the first ten minutes at Salford - if they were one offs then fine, but collectively they're indicative of a total lack of professionalism.
I always thought Radford was one of the worst exponents of all this when he played for us second time around. Bang average player, a captain who never said anything, silently stood behind the posts blowing out of his ars after conceding tries, a conceder of cheap penalties late in sets for blatant fouls, but rewarded and lauded constantly. We need to aspire to better than him as a player, better than him as a captain and better than him as a coach. Instead we renew his contract every year, and panic at any suggestion that he and the other players like him might not renew, then we make him the coach, then we make him the head coach and simply tell everybody we're better.
What's needed, IMHO, is a top class, hardline, modern thinking, no-nonsense coach. A total outsider, who can bring a professional pride and culture from elsewhere (because there's none of it here) and instill it into us - as Maguire did when he arrived at Wigan. I like the 'club Hull' idea, I really do - bringing our own youngsters through is producing great talent and it's long overdue. But they're coming into this culture where mediocrity is rewarded and it's all out for light ales after training even if we've lost three on the spin. Such coaches don't come cheap, but it will cost Pearson more in the long run if he doesn't pay it now.
Problem is, cultures are deeply ingrained and difficult to change. Players difficult to shift, replacements difficult to find, good practice and standards of behaviour take time to bed down. And we don't have time, because we've pisd so much of it away and there is no good will left in the support base.
Anyway, sorry, that was long, carry on.'"
Best post I've read on here for a while that, completely agree on all points. | | |
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Didn't McRae say years back we had a cancer in the club , think its now in charge at the club .
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| Quote ="oud3pstander"Didn't McRae say years back we had a cancer in the club , think its now in charge at the club .'"
He said it in 2001, IIRC after a particularly bad defeat at Saints. | | |
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| Quote ="Mrs Barista"Top drawer post - objective, articulate and on the money.
 '"
We are a local club, for local players and local supporters
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| 50% of "users currently browsing this forum" are Rovers fans. Talk about flies round turd.  | | | |
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Wonder who the new CEO is going to be .
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| Quote ="BarnetFC"Without getting all wishy washy and deep thinking about it - it's the culture letting Radford down, and he's part of it.
We've changed the owner, we've changed the coach, we've gone through several dozen players and the problems are the same. That tells me it's not an individual - although as Radford has followed this culture through as a player, coach and now head coach I don't see how he can possibly be the man to change it - but a collective culture that is the problem.
A culture is hard to quantify but the certain aspects and ingredients of it I see with our club are...
- we talk like a big club. It wasn't that long ago we had a dilapidated stadium (which we loved) and 5-6000 at home Super League games. I remember we won something like five of the first six around 1999 time and we subsequently got 7,000 in for Warrington at home (which we lost) and it was considered a big deal. The stadium, and the fantastic support, lulls us. We talk like it's inevitable that it will turn in our favour, and we don't have to work for it. We still blame referees. We don't fight for every point, fight for every loose ball. We concede penalties as if we won't be punished. We play out sets on opponent's lines expecting something to open up, without ever actually coming up with something brilliant ourselves to make it open up. Radford's "tactics" and this much vaunted "play book" we share with Doncaster (the poor bstrds) seem to be little more than "complete your set, get to the kick" and as long as our completion is high we'll win. It's like we're Hull FC, so they'll wave us in eventually. There's an arrogance. Paea said it when he signed, Hull FC are perceived as arrogant.
- We reward mediocrity. We pay excellent money to the players regardless of the results. When they fail, we pay them off - we have to, because no other club is stupid enough to pay them what we pay them. We pay players more than better clubs to get them here . Our geography works against us in that, but still. Tom Briscoe is paid less now at Leeds than he was here, because to play for Leeds is a big deal. It should be a blddy big deal to play for Hull. We should offer the same wage everybody else is offering and if they don't come, did we want that player anyway? Every year on here I see a clamour to get contracts renewed and in some cases I can see why but in most, why do we have that? These players are achieving nothing, every year. Why the rush to get new deals handed out? It can only be the fear that, like so many, they go somewhere else to a different culture and look alright and make us look daft. Why on earth would we be happy that we've rewarded Liam Watts with a new contract? He's been dog chocolate since he got here. A shadow of the player he was at HKR.
- We have a good portion of our squad, every year, commuting in, every day, from Leeds, Bradford and Castleford. We had a game postponed last year because of a traffic accident on the M62 which meant half our starting 13 was stuck on the motorway. You're representing Hull. You should live in Hull and breathe it like the people who pay your wages. It's not a big commitment to make, but then neither is tackling Scott Taylor 10 yards away from the line when you've got four team mates to help you and we can't do that either. Driving in, running about a couple of hours, driving back, driving in, losing 7-0 at home to Widnes, driving back. It's like a day job. And it needs to be so much more than that.
- The players know, as we saw with Gentle, that they can down tools and get the coach sacked if they don't like him much. Saw it with Kear, saw it with Sharp, saw it with Gentle. Whatever perceived mess Gentle left us in, I'd have been more inclined to stick with him after the Huddersfield debacle than not simply to show the players you are not downing tools and getting another coach the sack. Any coach who comes in here and says you're not drinking that much, you're not smoking that much, you live in the city that's paying your wages and it's not good enough to continue losing games as long as you keep the scores close knows that this group of players might down tools and he'll get the sack if they do - or at least that's what's happened before. They need the biggest rocket we can find shoved up them and they need the fires of hell burning inside them, but anybody who tries to do that to them might get the sack if they think he's a bit shouty or a bit hardline.
- lack of professionalism, on and off the field. The Catalans try at half time, the Castleford try straight from the start of the second half, the first ten minutes at Salford - if they were one offs then fine, but collectively they're indicative of a total lack of professionalism.
I always thought Radford was one of the worst exponents of all this when he played for us second time around. Bang average player, a captain who never said anything, silently stood behind the posts blowing out of his ars after conceding tries, a conceder of cheap penalties late in sets for blatant fouls, but rewarded and lauded constantly. We need to aspire to better than him as a player, better than him as a captain and better than him as a coach. Instead we renew his contract every year, and panic at any suggestion that he and the other players like him might not renew, then we make him the coach, then we make him the head coach and simply tell everybody we're better.
What's needed, IMHO, is a top class, hardline, modern thinking, no-nonsense coach. A total outsider, who can bring a professional pride and culture from elsewhere (because there's none of it here) and instill it into us - as Maguire did when he arrived at Wigan. I like the 'club Hull' idea, I really do - bringing our own youngsters through is producing great talent and it's long overdue. But they're coming into this culture where mediocrity is rewarded and it's all out for light ales after training even if we've lost three on the spin. Such coaches don't come cheap, but it will cost Pearson more in the long run if he doesn't pay it now.
Problem is, cultures are deeply ingrained and difficult to change. Players difficult to shift, replacements difficult to find, good practice and standards of behaviour take time to bed down. And we don't have time, because we've pisd so much of it away and there is no good will left in the support base.
Anyway, sorry, that was long, carry on.'"
Thank you for putting into words my feelings exactly.
And, when it's laid out articulately like this, you've described the bleeding obvious for all to see.
Fantastic post  . | | |
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| Quote ="Mrs Barista"50% of "users currently browsing this forum" are Rovers fans. Talk about flies round turd.
'"
Vultures circling a wounded animal! | | | |
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| Quote ="Doc Brown"Hang on that makes no sense to me. Lynch was still with us until the end of the 2013 season and Miller joined us halfway through that season.'"
May have read it wrong last night but pretty sure the original quote was that PG forced Pearson into paying Lynch off & signed Miller as a boy to do a mans job. Not entirely sure he meant that the 2 were connected. | | |
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| Quote ="UllFC"Starting to think Pearson has lost the plot! Obviously I don't expect him to start berating his coach in a fans forum, but I'm sick and tired of this blaming McRae and Gentle for everything game. Radford has had 18months in charge (with years before that obviously as coach and assistant) and there is not even the slightest glimmer of hope that we are getting better.
Of the team that took to the field at Cas only 3 were Gentle/McRae signings! (Paea, Thomson, Watts) the rest are either players who were already at the club or Radfords signings. Even if you factor in injured players only Ellis is a Gentle signing. So this deflection of blame simply doesn't wash.
Then there's the vague 'people letting the club down' line, he's owned the club 4 years in July, why hasn't he sorted the culture out?'"
Certainly doesn't when you think Paea,Watts,Thompson and Ellis are four of our best players | | |
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| Quote ="BIG HOWARD"it may not be players letting radford down on purpose just occasional dumb plays .Against cas luke gale scored a try as one of our forwards (no names) run with his back to the play.there was the dumb play against catalan just on half time. Dumb plays or inexperience but certainly no lack of effort'"
Bowden . | | | |
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| Quote ="B0NES"Wonder who the new CEO is going to be.'"
Someone called 'bumpy'  | | |
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Do people actually believe briscoe went for less money than he was offered at hull ? And surely no one swallows the old we take less money to stay with Leeds than we could get somewhere else ? What a load of tripe
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Also agree with Pearson in the side needs to have a nasty side to it .
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| Quote ="*1865*"It's difficult to disagree with what you're saying and it really would be interesting to hear his thinking behind it.
I just remember walking out of the HJ stadium after the playoff game in 2012 genuinely believing we were going somewhere (despite defeat). Roll forward two and a bit years and we've been humiliated at Wembley, then in the playoffs and have been languishing in the bottom 4 for the last 18 months.'"
Personally, as hard as it was to consider right away, I still felt we were making progress after the Huddersfield debacle. I think there was a massive overreaction to two very painful (non-)performances, and a fairly impulsive decision made which is now costing us. IMO Pearson was impatient and possibly had his anger stoked enough to let a few bad results/performances over three months overshadow the previous year and a half of progress. He should have held firm with Gentle for the start of the next season at least, if for nothing else than to show to players that the coach had a strong position to deal with them as he then did Radford. | | |
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| Quote ="B0NES"Wonder who the new CEO is going to be .'"
Hmmm...
Must be born in Hull & probably a newly retired player- Yeamo? | | |
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| Quote ="*1865*"Pearson obviously feels it's the players.'"
So under Gentle it was the coach that was the problem (too soft and not capable of taking the players in hand, apparently), a new coach is given carte blanche to completely overhaul the squad as he sees fit and deal with the players with strength and discipline to get the best out of them, and now it's the players? But it's still Gentle and McRae's fault?
I must be missing something as to how this all hangs together and makes sense. | | |
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| Quote ="Legends and Icons"Do people actually believe briscoe went for less money than he was offered at hull ? And surely no one swallows the old we take less money to stay with Leeds than we could get somewhere else ? What a load of tripe'"
We were led to believe ellis came to us for less money than leeds offered,so why not. | | |
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"So under Gentle it was the coach that was the problem (too soft and not capable of taking the players in hand, apparently), a new coach is given carte blanche to completely overhaul the squad as he sees fit and deal with the players with strength and discipline to get the best out of them, and now it's the players? But it's still Gentle and McRae's fault?
I must be missing something as to how this all hangs together and makes sense.'" None of it makes sense because nobody really knows what's been going on.
Rumours and gossip become facts and there are too many on here who love to stir it up even further. | | |
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| Quote ="BarnetFC"Without getting all wishy washy and deep thinking about it - it's the culture letting Radford down, and he's part of it.
We've changed the owner, we've changed the coach, we've gone through several dozen players and the problems are the same. That tells me it's not an individual - although as Radford has followed this culture through as a player, coach and now head coach I don't see how he can possibly be the man to change it - but a collective culture that is the problem.
A culture is hard to quantify but the certain aspects and ingredients of it I see with our club are...
- we talk like a big club. It wasn't that long ago we had a dilapidated stadium (which we loved) and 5-6000 at home Super League games. I remember we won something like five of the first six around 1999 time and we subsequently got 7,000 in for Warrington at home (which we lost) and it was considered a big deal. The stadium, and the fantastic support, lulls us. We talk like it's inevitable that it will turn in our favour, and we don't have to work for it. We still blame referees. We don't fight for every point, fight for every loose ball. We concede penalties as if we won't be punished. We play out sets on opponent's lines expecting something to open up, without ever actually coming up with something brilliant ourselves to make it open up. Radford's "tactics" and this much vaunted "play book" we share with Doncaster (the poor bstrds) seem to be little more than "complete your set, get to the kick" and as long as our completion is high we'll win. It's like we're Hull FC, so they'll wave us in eventually. There's an arrogance. Paea said it when he signed, Hull FC are perceived as arrogant.
- We reward mediocrity. We pay excellent money to the players regardless of the results. When they fail, we pay them off - we have to, because no other club is stupid enough to pay them what we pay them. We pay players more than better clubs to get them here . Our geography works against us in that, but still. Tom Briscoe is paid less now at Leeds than he was here, because to play for Leeds is a big deal. It should be a blddy big deal to play for Hull. We should offer the same wage everybody else is offering and if they don't come, did we want that player anyway? Every year on here I see a clamour to get contracts renewed and in some cases I can see why but in most, why do we have that? These players are achieving nothing, every year. Why the rush to get new deals handed out? It can only be the fear that, like so many, they go somewhere else to a different culture and look alright and make us look daft. Why on earth would we be happy that we've rewarded Liam Watts with a new contract? He's been dog chocolate since he got here. A shadow of the player he was at HKR.
- We have a good portion of our squad, every year, commuting in, every day, from Leeds, Bradford and Castleford. We had a game postponed last year because of a traffic accident on the M62 which meant half our starting 13 was stuck on the motorway. You're representing Hull. You should live in Hull and breathe it like the people who pay your wages. It's not a big commitment to make, but then neither is tackling Scott Taylor 10 yards away from the line when you've got four team mates to help you and we can't do that either. Driving in, running about a couple of hours, driving back, driving in, losing 7-0 at home to Widnes, driving back. It's like a day job. And it needs to be so much more than that.
- The players know, as we saw with Gentle, that they can down tools and get the coach sacked if they don't like him much. Saw it with Kear, saw it with Sharp, saw it with Gentle. =#0000FFWhatever perceived mess Gentle left us in, I'd have been more inclined to stick with him after the Huddersfield debacle than not simply to show the players you are not downing tools and getting another coach the sack. Any coach who comes in here and says you're not drinking that much, you're not smoking that much, you live in the city that's paying your wages and it's not good enough to continue losing games as long as you keep the scores close knows that this group of players might down tools and he'll get the sack if they do - or at least that's what's happened before. They need the biggest rocket we can find shoved up them and they need the fires of hell burning inside them, but anybody who tries to do that to them might get the sack if they think he's a bit shouty or a bit hardline.
- lack of professionalism, on and off the field. The Catalans try at half time, the Castleford try straight from the start of the second half, the first ten minutes at Salford - if they were one offs then fine, but collectively they're indicative of a total lack of professionalism.
I always thought Radford was one of the worst exponents of all this when he played for us second time around. Bang average player, a captain who never said anything, silently stood behind the posts blowing out of his ars after conceding tries, a conceder of cheap penalties late in sets for blatant fouls, but rewarded and lauded constantly. We need to aspire to better than him as a player, better than him as a captain and better than him as a coach. Instead we renew his contract every year, and panic at any suggestion that he and the other players like him might not renew, then we make him the coach, then we make him the head coach and simply tell everybody we're better.
What's needed, IMHO, is a top class, hardline, modern thinking, no-nonsense coach. A total outsider, who can bring a professional pride and culture from elsewhere (because there's none of it here) and instill it into us - as Maguire did when he arrived at Wigan. I like the 'club Hull' idea, I really do - bringing our own youngsters through is producing great talent and it's long overdue. But they're coming into this culture where mediocrity is rewarded and it's all out for light ales after training even if we've lost three on the spin. Such coaches don't come cheap, but it will cost Pearson more in the long run if he doesn't pay it now.
Problem is, cultures are deeply ingrained and difficult to change. Players difficult to shift, replacements difficult to find, good practice and standards of behaviour take time to bed down. And we don't have time, because we've pisd so much of it away and there is no good will left in the support base.
Anyway, sorry, that was long, carry on.'"
You make a lot of very good points.
The highlighted bit in particular was part of what I was meaning a couple of posts ago. | | |
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"Personally, as hard as it was to consider right away, I still felt we were making progress after the Huddersfield debacle. I think there was a massive overreaction to two very painful (non-)performances, and a fairly impulsive decision made which is now costing us. IMO Pearson was impatient and possibly had his anger stoked enough to let a few bad results/performances over three months overshadow the previous year and a half of progress. He should have held firm with Gentle for the start of the next season at least, if for nothing else than to show to players that the coach had a strong position to deal with them as he then did Radford.'"
I agree but IIRC there were rumours before we got to Wembley that Pearson planned to get rid of Gentle. | | |
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| Quote ="Isaiah"I recon Pearson took a back seat in such matters, and left it all to McRae and Gentle.'"
He must have know some details though, he'd be a fool not to. If I owned a business, I don't care who I chose to run it, be it my best mate, my wife, or the bloke who cleans my windows, I wouldn't be letting them hire people without knowing what salaries they're throwing around. | | |
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"So under Gentle it was the coach that was the problem (too soft and not capable of taking the players in hand, apparently), a new coach is given carte blanche to completely overhaul the squad as he sees fit and deal with the players with strength and discipline to get the best out of them, and now it's the players? But it's still Gentle and McRae's fault?
I must be missing something as to how this all hangs together and makes sense.'"
Gentle allegedly made poor signings. Radford got rid of them and supposedly improved the squad but is achieving less than Gentle did with his inferior players. How does that work? | | |
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| Quote ="bonaire"Certainly doesn't when you think Paea,Watts,Thompson and Ellis are four of our best players'"
I thought that when I read that post (or 3 of them are, at least. Watts could be better but we don't help him by not following up for the offload). | | |
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| Quote ="ccs"None of it makes sense because nobody really knows what's been going on.
Rumours and gossip become facts and there are too many on here who love to stir it up even further.'"
But tbf, those inconsistent points I made are pretty much things Pearson has said or intimated.
- When he sacked Gentle and appointed Radford he said that Gentle was soft and the players needed someone strong to bring about the correct reaction and improvements.
- He has also criticised Gentle/McRae's recruitment and lauded Radford's.
- 18 months on the squad has been changed to the new coach's liking, but we're actually worse.
Somehow though, this isn't the coach's fault; he's being let down by other people. This seems to suggest the players, which is very odd given he's assembled this squad, his recruitment has been much better than the last setup's, and he's a much better man-manager who can get the best out of players.
I'm honestly of the opinion that Pearson thinks most of us fans are stupid. | | | |
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