Yes. I didn't expect us to beat Wigan but I expected a better fight from the team. For me that made Friday just as soul destroying as the defeats to Widnes and Wakey.

The lack of reaction from the players after the Wakey defeat was disappointing.

Think the team is low on confidence, we need a win, this weekend is still a winnable game and a must win game for Radford and the players.

A great summarization Doc.

The way things are, I doubt we can attract any proven coach ,given the staffing resources available.
Blaming the players, is a difficult scenario, as I feel they're not been adequately prepared, as they are suffering from a lack of professional preparation due to lack of resources.

Radford : its difficult to gauge, if he's the guy to take us forward,as he could point the finger ,at insufficient investment on the coaching side.

Pearson has tried to spend up to maximum on the cap, hoping this would be a band-aid to remedy the situation, but its not working.

I just wonder, if now ,AP has called time on investing further cash, the McDonnell situation could be an example of this, as he has only 5 months left on his contract. AP also stated he would install a Sports Science Dept,

Does anyone know, if we have one??

Going forward, if AP decides to stick with Radford, he has to give him ,further resources on the staffing side.

If not, crowds will drop, and its extremely difficult to attact these fans back.

I could be wrong, but I personally think it was probably radford who advised Pearson on back room staff, probably told him, we don't need this , this and this , think radford was pretty confident he could kick this teams in to shape all on is own! He's learning the hard way

I think we're going to have to wait and see what signings we make for next year, before we know what direction A. P. has decided to take in respect of further investment in the team. It appears he's going to stick with Radford.
I don't know if Radford will make a good coach, what I do know is, he needs some help right now. Also, looking at the team, I'm not sure a better coach could get more from some of them, which in turn doesn't help Radford.
Please, Please Mr. Pearson, get someone in to assist/coach Radford.

The Wigan game though , bearing in mind they were on to third and fourth choice replacements and had their rotation hampered with injuries during the game , illustrated just how far away we are from what we want. That's what made it so much more important than just another defeat to Wigan of which there have been many down the years for good and poor FC sides. There is just no sign that we are going to catch them up , quite the reverse. It was men against boys and those Wigan boys will get better. Some talk about future internationals in our junior ranks , they'll find it tough to be that when there are such talented kids at Wigan and Leeds who look to be ready now but are third and fourth choice and just can't get in those sides. IF we had the right set up and reputation we could look to attract those players and offer them the chance now but why would they come currently? I thought when AP took over that we would build something that was attractive to the best players at whatever age and wherever they're from. Instead we've seemingly turned inwards and put all of our eggs in the "traditional" , local basket.

He won't and he could all the help in the world (not that he will get it..last minute larries on the kicking coach was another shortcoming/failure to address months before the season started.
Radford clearly just does not have the skillset to coach at this level, he cannot fathom what the problem is which is equally scary from a fans POV. He is so far out of his depth it isn't funny and this is all down to Pearson.
Yes he might have invested in other areas but looking at the overall picture just investing in one or two areas just isn't going to cut it.
So far it's a cut price coach, hardly any backroom staff, kicking coach (if indeed this is actually true) who did a few hours & certainly wasn't before the season started I can assure you from what followed in the first game.

Seriously Pearson is totally to blame here, as well as Radford and I've said before, RAdford should have had the decency to say no I'm not ready, I'm not even close to being ready. It shows what a selfish person RAdford is, that he hasn't backed up on him saying he'd walk away if he failed, well Lee, you've failed..miserably...just do one Lee for the good of the club..and Pearson..put your money where your mouth is or sell us on to someone who gives a and is fully committed instead of going for the cut price options all the time and not investing in ALL aspects that will help us become successful.

To be fair to Radford, he's not alone in this.

I was interested in hearing the Carvell interview stating that players mentality from the last training session to the game.

Why doesnt Pearson employ a Sports Psychologist? - we change players, change the Head Coach - but the symptoms are still the same.

We just go round in circles, we have a clearout of players - but performance wise -nothing changes.

I haven't heard the interview. What did he say exactly?

Maybe looking at how Leeds Saints and Wigan ran their clubs might help in finding that formula instead of this local pride claptrap?.

Basically, what are the differences between his stay at Wire, than Hull, he was asked ,
Why he thought, the performances against lesser teams dropped?
his own opinion, was that from the last training session to the game, the mentality of the squad, went awol.

Don't think that is just his opinion! Ha ha. I agree that they should be hiring a sports psychologist but I'm all for them doing anything that they can to improve things.

More worryingly, there are no cap restrictions on employing coaching staff, but Pearson won't/can't
utilise this to our advantage.

This is a point I don't understand. All the top clubs spend to the cap, so additional benefit can be found on what you spend on coaching staff, equipment and sports science. Just makes no sense for FC to be so light in this department.

The only reasons I can think is Radford has made the call as he feels he wants control over these areas, very misguided if true. Or Pearson isn't being genuine about investment in the club, its very easy to spend to the full cap, all the top clubs do so you can't hide from this fact and it allows you to say look we spend what Leeds and Wigan do. Where you cut costs is having 5 back room staff instead of 15 and hope the fans don't notice.

Didn't Pearson visit Wigan last season to see how there systems worked ?

Yes he did, said he wanted to address Sports Science at Hull FC, but AFAIK -he hasnt.

I've just watched a video, regarding Wigan's Sports Science Dept. There is no wonder, they are streets ahead of us. This is the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhcgJSHUOu0#t=305

I've just watched a video, regarding Wigan's Sports Science Dept. There is no wonder, they are streets ahead of us. This is the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhcgJSHUOu0#t=305

Quote ="weaver93"I've just watched a video, regarding Wigan's Sports Science Dept. There is no wonder, they are streets ahead of us. This is the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhcgJSHUOu0#t=305'" You should be emailing Pearson with all this research, some good work.

Quote ="weaver93"I've just watched a video, regarding Wigan's Sports Science Dept. There is no wonder, they are streets ahead of us. This is the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhcgJSHUOu0#t=305'" You should be emailing Pearson with all this research, some good work.

The galling thing is Dave - Pearson knows about Sports Science.

Finding little to disagree with through the whole thread , but I'm not sure what the answer is.

On Friday we missed tackles, left gaps you could drive a bus through, had little clue with the ball in hand and capitulated. AGAIN. Yet only a few weeks previously we played the 2013 league leaders off the park. It's either rocks (more) or diamonds (less) and the blame for that lies equally (IMO) with the players and the coach.

The players are either not bothered, unable to understand or play to the game plan (or unwilling to), or just not good enough. There is little or no off the cuff play as we don't have that kind of flair player now. For all that he's playing well and is currently the heartbeat of the team, Westy is pretty much playing as a battering ram, spinning into the tackle and looking for an offload or a break. Its becoming as predictable as Tickle's drop off back into the ruck last year and beyond. Miller moves across the line looking for a runner and most of the backs seem to be having a cig behind the posts. We get good go forward from the forwards (often playing one out rugby again), but rarely struggle to get up in the tackle, letting the defence dictate. In defence we still wait for the attack to come at us instead of getting in their faces. Teams like Saints and Leeds will have a field day with so much space. Its been like that for as long as I can remember too. My personal view is that Miller and Rankin are the short term future for us, but they are inconsistent and only played inconsistently (has anyone yet confirmed that Rankin was injured on Friday?). Only Ellis really seems to be on Miller's wavelength when he has the ball and we all know why that is.

We've also gone back to the "heads down when we go behind" mentality and there doesn't appear to be a leader on the field reading the riot act or geeing them up when it does happen. It is so frustrating to see - one try can quickly become 2 or 3 because the response is all wrong.

The coach hasn't proved that he was the right person for the job yet either. His preseason was baffling. His chopping and changing of the side has meant a lack of consistency in our starting side and I wonder if this is good for the players. I'm still struggling to understand why the coach that got us to the cup final was unceremoniously dumped like he was (in 2008 we didn't even get to the playoffs yet Agar stayed). Yes I'm a Gentle fan, but accept he's gone and we have to deal with what we have. So, why do the players not respond to the coach's game plan? What has happened to the "bawling out/arm around the shoulder" approach to players? Is it actually doing anything? Ben Crooks seemed to benefit from this approach when he was sent to Donny, but went backwards on Friday. Another trip down the M18? And why so soon?

I seriously think a sports psychologist is at least part of the answer to our issues. Leeds were always the bridesmaids, consistently good but always falling at the final hurdle. In comes the psychologist and bingo, more grand finals than you can shake a stick at. Consistently good became consistently successful. A team to fear in terms of potential performances. We need help to become consistently good and then who knows...

On Friday we had the wings so compressed in that Wigan were running outside us all night. It was like the Agar days again. Why? Have we learnt nothing? I presume we're training the house down again

, although I guess that leaves nothing left for game day.

I really am at a loss to explain how we can play so badly when we have the players we have. It appears the coach doesn't know either. I walked out on Friday with 10 minutes left as the effort simply wasn't there on the field. Shipping players out isn't easy mid season, and sacking the coach isn't the answer yet, so where do we go from here? Apart from another drubbing by the enemy (trailed by numerous press articles about how much the derby means and we know the fans want it too, blah blah blah) ?

Answers on the back of a season pass.

I don't know what the answer is to these but agree that if it is the Radford scenario that it is misguided. With AP I'd be inclined to say that it was also a misguided thing rather than anything misleading. He has invested in the club and improved facilities. Maybe he feels that is enough or was advised by someone that there is no need for a large backroom staff. I don't think it's a case of him hoping that the fans don't notice. If that was the case would the club go to the bother of listing the coaching staff on the website?

The funny thing is that we probably wouldn't be having this discussion if things were going better than they are at the moment. But we're all feeling low about how the season is going so far and we're looking for answers on how things could improve. And we're starting to look beyond just questioning the players attitudes and their abilities or the quality of our coach.

Rankin was dropped, no injury

For a start,we're not on a level playing field, compared to Wigan/Leeds, they are superiorly mentally & physically prepared
to what we are.

Fans believe, that if we sign this player,release that player is the answer, it is not - it is temporary fix to a long term problem.

Until we address our problems,(mentality, physical & skills ), our problems will continue to exist.

That is one of the best posts I have ever read Chris. Outstanding summary.