The game was indicative of our whole season - good defence, poor attack. This needs to change pretty quickly if next season is to be anything other than yet another disappointment.

This.....

Agree 100%.

Recruitment in the off season needs to be brilliant for us to start to seriously challenge

Agree about our recruitment. If we are losing O'Meley, Lynch, Tickle, Briscoe, Galea (that's a fair amount of cap I reckon), and replacing them with Paea/Walker & Thompson then we aren't looking better off imo. We need 2/3 genuine quality players imo.

The game itself the boys never turned up and too many players looked like nerves got the best of them. Wigan didn't play that well but they didn't have to really We just dropped far too much ball . As for next season think Paea will be decent signing but if looking to get Thompson and Walker again both players with potential but need more if looking to get higher in league.Should be looking at Winger cant just have crookes and Lineham .Also feel need more aggression in pack .

The prop is walker from cas. walker, paea, watts, Johnson, green, Bowden is a bottom 6 set of props, not a top 4 one.

Losing quality and experience in o'meley, tickle, galea and replacing them with kids is a recipe for disaster. I'm hoping we have a top class overseas forward coming in.

crookes is also a poor replacement for Briscoe and will leave us weaker

Not done Wigan any harm has it.

Jesus, sorry can't believe I didn't realise that was the recipe for success. Feeling really confident for next year now

"indicative of our season"?

Yesterday's game was indicative of our approach to the game for too many years now. Year after year we have failed to respect and value the ball. The odd wild pass apart (Miller to the TJ), most of the dropped balls came from the receiving player being guilty of man watching. Turning over ball like we did is always going to result in punishment and we got our a[ir[/ises handed to us on a plate yesterday.

I'd heard during the week that Gentle intended to play an expansive game but given yesterday's conditions, I expect that game plan was ripped up. But instead of five drives and a kick, we opted for two drives and a scrum. Failing to execute quick PtBs resulted in our kickers having little time to execute a useful punt downfield, on the few occasions we managed to complete a set - all too often the ball went straight down Tompkins throat. Add to that a lack of chase (not Rangii) and we were usually defending in our own half.

Wigan weren't great but we were woeful in attack, lacking patience and forcing passes that inevitably led to errors and handing possession back to the opposition. At 6-0 down after 40 minutes, I still considered we had a chance. When Wigan went for two points early in the 2nd half, I consider that had more to do with respect for our defence than the weather conditions. And those claiming that we should have gone for goal in similar positions are wise in hindsight but if we had kicked, how would that have improved our attack? OK we wouldn't have been nilled but that's just a pride thing, we still wouldn't have significantly changed the way we were playing and we'd still have lost. We needed to cross for a try to gain any confidence an the panic football we were playing made that a very difficult prospect.

Some have singled players out for criticism: Ben Crooks for allowing Thornely's try but minutes earlier he'd wrapped up Pat Richards to prevent what looked a certain try. Perhaps Crooks wasn't 100% but who else would we play there? We had no 3/4s left and Whiting's best position is from the bench. It would have been a major mistake to put Horney on the pitch. Richard Horne has been a talisman this year but he'd been out for three months and would have been found sadly lacking on the Wembley turf.

One play I would have liked to see yesterday was kicking early in the tackle count, we've got the best defence in Superleague and we should have been using that in Wigan's half of the field, not our own. That would then transfer the pressure to our opponents and force them into playing panic football. We used similar tactics against Wire in the semi and that didn't turn out too shabby. That game also proved we do have some tricks up our sleeve - Whiting's try was a classic training ground move that was perfectly executed.

I'm disappointed about yesterday but that's the sixth time I've seen us lose at Wembley so it's not an alien experience. I suppose living as far away as I do also helps develop a sense of detachment, I certainly don't have to suffer any stupid Rovers supporters crowing at me. I do have some concerns about our squad for next year, especially the forwards, we've wasted Ellis's talents by using him to donkey the ball in instead of running the lines he has done so effectively in the past. Similarly Westerman came as a ball-playing loose forward but we seem happy to have turned him into another donkey. Paea will replace Ogre but we desperately need at least one more mongrel prop to help get us on the front foot. I'd love to see us playing axpansive rugby but until we can better value the possession, that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

Do I still believe Gentle can do it for us? At the moment, yes, I am still convinced he has what it takes to win us silverware but that's going to require a vast improvement in the basic skill sets required and a radical change of attitude from all the playing staff

Didnt turn up,didnt respect possesion or play to the conditions...Wigan wasnt brilliant at all and was definately there for the taking.Panicked when we got ball and then dropped it when we didnt panick.The only time we looked remotely like doing anything was when Heremia was on and he ran at Wigan and they didnt like it,he should have stayed on and Miller gone off but Gentle seems to stick rigidly to a plan.He needs to win the last 2 matches and at least a play off match so get the chance for next season.I would aso question our signings for this season and next.....for me..Holdsworth isnt the answer...went missing big style today and isnt the 1st time he has this season...take away his kicking game and he is average.Miller,i will judge nxt season.Ellis..expected more and injurys a concern now.Crookes..go now please.Johnson...looks totally out of favour so may as well get shut.Recruitment needs to be spot on for nxt season or we wont get the fans back...il be re-newing as have seen a damn sight worse than this and im a fan.

They threw kids into their front row and it didnt harm them...i would have said our pack and subs was better than theirs but they played the conditions better.Id like a bit more size in the pack sure as dont think the small pack works.

Agree 100% great post

cant argue there mate

Not surprised with yesterday's performance TBH.

Our same problems exist, year in, year out.

Against any well drilled defence, we dont look like scoring. - we dont ask any positive questions of the oppositions defence.

Messrs Sandercock & Noble, have improved their attack style,with less resources with existing players,than Gentle has at his disposal.

I dont feel ,as its a personnel problem neither,it appears our basic core skills in attack are neglected -Defensively,we are superb.

Until our attack is improved - things will not change.

I have just watched the game on sky plus. It's clear that eyes were taken off the ball for most of the knock ons.

I still think the conditions should have dictated a more cautious approach in regard to penalty choices. 3 shots in kick able positions would have left us 6-8 down with 20 to go.

Well summed up. I'm not sure what the answer is but I don't think it's gentle. The club owner has given him everything and we've ended up with an average squad which consistently underperforms and doesn't seem capable of doing some very basic things well

I thought yesterday distilled the 2013 season into 80 minutes. No respect for the ball, no idea in the opposition 20 but excellent defending.

I didn't expect too much from Miller this season so I'm hoping more from him next year after gaining a bit of experience this year, this should hopefully help with our last plays in the opposition 20.

You rarely get into the opposition 20m on two plays, which seemed to be about our average yesterday

Regarding how long for Gentle to make the 4.

Interesting stat. Coaches in their first season did it.

Catalan 2007 - 10th, 2008 3rd = Potter

hudds 2008 10th ,- 09 3rd = Brown

Wigan 2009 - 6th - 2010 1st -Maguire
hudds 2012 7th - 2013 1st - Anderson.

The problem again, is these so called quality players being ‘available’

It ok shouting ‘recruitment’ ‘recruitment’ when our real problem for decades has been ‘development’

Interesting stats.

Wigan 2005 7th - 2006 7th = Noble.
Saints 2012 3rd - 2013 5th = Brown.

Sadly can't see us 'competing' until our development kicks in.

Dream recruitment this year would bring in James Graham. Kyle Amor, Richard Walker, NRL 2nd rower & at least one top drawer 3/4. We need to strengthen the squad not weaken it.

In reality that can't happen due to Salary cap etc.

Sadly wouldn't see even that team dominating the competition.

Only way we will compete is by the likes of Crooks, Lineham, Green, Shaul & co. really kicking on & being supported by more youngsters & really top class experience.

In AP we trust but really doubting PG now.

Agree with this.

Also think we are making progress with development but it's going to take another season at least. Plus I think our mental as well as skill development is paramount. Yesterday we looked like we were startled in the headlights by the occasion. All season long we have still chucked the so-called 'easy on paper' games away. Both these examples demonstrate weaknesses in our mental attitude. But our development as a team [iis[/i building compared to the Agar years, our overstretched patience must endure more time.

The over-reaction on this forum is incredibly narrow minded.

With PG we've had a young lad play at wembley, in what his 9th 1st team game ( instead of Horne which many other coaches would have done), without PG our young upcoming forwards wouldn't get a look in nor would the backs.
We've got a 20 year No.7 who whilst is an exciting prospect, is just that, a prospect, he's no Sterling (ATM) and will come on and be better and gain more experience/composure.


As for the final ,we've got several players who were still not 100% and maybe in hindsight rushed back due to the severity of our situation, a decision coaches have to decide upon time and time again. However fitness wise I thought we matched and exceeded Wigan.
On top of that you have a few players who had stinkers and with it being a cup final, awful weather and the pressure of the occasion you have what can only be described as an awful overall performance but not our worst this season by any stretch.
I was proud of the way we defended but we looked scared, nervous and clearly tried to hard and put pressure on ourselves to force the issue far too often which imploded on us big style.

Getting rid of Gentle doesn't remove the fact the players themselves failed, and I'm sure they will be the first ones to hold their hands up and admit they performed woefully. Getting rid of Gentle doesn't mean we would do any better next season, him staying bring us is some semblence of continuity, it keeps up the good work he has brought into the club and we will improve, I think we are better than last season and our defence has been immense.

I'm as bitterly dissapointed as everyone else but from where we were under Agar/Hetherington's and the absolute dross on the field plus sub standard infrastructure we are in a far better position to keep improving. We know we can compete and beat the top teams, we've being a bit unlucky at times and sometimes just that we weren't good enough on the day.
I think the players will be going all out to win against Wigan next weekend, not that it will make a huge amount of difference for some but to me I think we have the basis of a team that can go forward and under PG I think we have a great chance.

Full agree there Knockerbumps

If the dropped ball had occurred on tackle 5 or 6 instead of 1 or 2 I doubt much would have been made of it. The coach cannot legislate for the ball being handed over so early on such a regular basis. We were never i a position to form any sort of attack we had to report to brain farts of kicks in the second half (Crookes, Houghton and Briscoe) which would never come to anything. That was panic playing rather than the coaches plays.