Were do people get that Westerman is or was a ball playing forward,he was played at Cas as a wide running 2nd row,how can it be coached out of him,if he never had it in the first place?

I'm a massive fan of Westerman, but not at 13. Think Gentle feels he needs Tickle on the pitch for goal kicking, so Westy gets shoved in the middle.

I think our attacking quality (or lack thereof) is down to Gentle, now the squad is 'his', getting the defence firing first. You can't deny our defence has had real stopping power this season, I'm confident our attack will improve exponentially over time.

Absolutely. A complete change of approach needs time and as Cal says our defence is now as good as any in the league. I'm sure attention will now turn to the attack and that we will all see an improvement in this department. Rome wasn't built in a day and after the Agar years some major correction was needed.

Our pack is the problem IMO, they get beaten too easy and have a way too slow PTB. They offer little in offloads and when they do its when they don't need to.

It takes a full backline to produce tries though and plenty of other teams score without there halfbacks creating tries.

I'm just hoping there is some sort of long term masterplan on the cards.

Our pack has looked far fitter and has being able to take down these 'big bast@ rd" forwards people keep banging on about. we actually looked miles fitter than Wigan's forwards who looked shagged at times compared to ours

Lack of continuity in the halves has done for us this year (with no-one coming through from the youth system) so much so that we had to get an unproven, very inexperienced 20yr old
Add in some sloppy patches that have cost us easily 10 points in the league, some games were we just didn't play at all where we were awful with a real lack of mental fortitude we have found ourselves where we are.

IF we get Holdsworth and Miller playing the majority of the games next year & try to blood a young 'un in the halves (if there is actually anyone ready?) get the players mentally ready from the off (& continuing throughout the the season) I reckon we can be up there...

Unfortunately since the turkeys voted for Christmas, with two teams dropping out of Superleague next year, I doubt very much we'll be seeing much "blooding" of young players throughout the whole league

We've all seen too many examples of your "expert" insight into the game to take your opinion seriously. Irrespective of how well our forwards play, the team continually lack the ability to open up an opposition defence despite having good field position. Anyone with a knowledge of the game knows this is nothing to do with the forwards being outplayed.

You're the type of fan who rolls out crap like "forwards get you to Wembley and backs win you the game one you get there" and tired old clichés of that ilk

Having seen us play in every final since 1979 I can honestly say that was our worst performance in a final in all that time. (I might argue that a 2nd div play off at OT against Huddersfield was on a par but we had achieved our goal that year) As a result there is bound to be a lot of soul searching going on.
Bottom line is we would have taken a Wembley final at the start of the season. Unfortunately since last November we have had a world class half mickey us around only to take big bucks in Oz. (yes we may have been a little green thinking he would come, but none of us knew exactly how negotiations went so we can't comment) We have not had a settled half back pairing as a result of that and injuries all season.
Horne is regularly out for about two months a season and however well he was playing when in the team (and he was by far and away our best player) it was inevitable that he would be out soon enough.
We are then left scratching around for a replacement. Miller whilst potentially being the answer is simply that "potentially". He is 21 now and finding his feet in a foreign country away from home and trying to gel with a new team and more importantly Holdsworth who has also been injured a lot of the time.
Now not one of us on here raised doubts about their ability when we were beating Warrington again. If you did then stick a link on here. I have no doubt that this season is now virtually over but come February when these two have had a full PRE season under their belt and I predict vast improvements in their ability to work together for the good of the team. Then we will have the problem of keeping hold of them as the NRL beckons again. But that's for another day.
As for the pack well we can argue about size. PG wants a mobile pack that can do big minutes. We appear to be losing some experience this season. I hope Lynch does not go but if he does well we will move on. I have seen arguments about next seasons pack but what people are failing to mention is that Watts Pitts Westy Green etc are all a year old in terms of experience. They will continue to improve. Have a little faith in them. We have seen enough of them to know that they have what it takes at SL level. What we need is consistency.
The backs are showing signs that they can be exceptional. The jury for me is still out on Crookes but the rest I am confident in. Arundel seems a natural successor to Yeaman and I expect him to be playing more than Yeamo next year providing they are all fit. Briscoe is a loss so I would be looking for a decent replacement for him. The fight between Shaul and Shannon will be good next year. Shaul maybe accommodated on the wing for periods. Who knows.
All in all we ARE moving in the right direction from where we were under Agar. Still not 100% sure PG will take us all the way or if we need someone with a little but of the X factor to come in and kick us on. But who that is lord only knows.
All good sides over the many years I have watched RL are built on a solid foundation of defence. We have that foundation. We now need the off season to kick on from basic attack. We have seen evidence recently of that side improving Whitings try in the semi was an example. It all takes time.
So yes its time for soul searching especially after such a poor performance on a big stage, but lets not be aggressive and abusive about it. Take a step back a deep breath and stand tall and proud together. Rome as was said was not built in a day.
Yes examples of vast improvement have been seen t other clubs. Wigan under McGuire but come on Kath and co ran us into the ground. It will take more than a few quid to get over night success.

So forwards have nothing to do with it then? Do you actually believe the you write at times?

For an alleged genius you are one dim fukker

I think what he is saying they has being plenty of times we are in an opposition 20 and come away empty handed. That is not down to losing a forward battle.

Do you not think it's easier to get over when our forwards are quick off the floor? If our opponents can get in our faces due to a slow ptb it doesn't matter if we're 10m away or 90m, they're not getting the time and space to create.

I aren't saying that it's the only problem, but it's a big part of the problem, which Jake is ignoring.

For someone who has supposedly watched the game for a long time, you're one clueless fukker about it.

I agree we have a slow PTB but I also think when Holdsworth has the ball he takes a long time to do anything with, which again enables defenses to get into position. See the Salford game for example plenty of field position with the forwards on top and not a lot of creativity coming from it.

He also seems to organize the players far too deep and he never takes the line on to try to commit defenders, its almost like he is scared of getting hit or getting injured. I'm 50/50 with Holdsworth because when we need a player to control a game his kicking game can do that which makes him a valuable asset but when we need points he gets shown up. Even so back in the day you only ever got 5m instead of 10m and them players always found a way to unlock defenses. Forwards for me are all about getting the field position and when we get it, we rarely seem to do a lot with it.

You wont get a reply to this excellent post mate because the kids are to busy name calling

You wont get a reply to this excellent post mate because the kids are to busy name calling

You wont get a reply to this excellent post mate because the kids are to busy name calling

He's had three replies just from you

I'm not ignoring it but it isn't a significant part of the problem. Lack of dummy runners, organisation, poor short kicking game, poor last tackle options and seemingly any set moves are the biggest issue. In pretty much every game this season we have struggled to open up the opposition defence when in possession in their 20 metre area irrespective of who's forwards have been on top. In fact, the problem has seemed worse in games when we have been on top because we then fail to turn sustained pressure into points

Shame your dad was even more clueless about contraception than you are about RL

He knows he's wrong but his supposed superior intelligence won't let him admit it. He does it every couple of months and argues black is white with pretty much everyone on the board

Oh eck it kept telling me it was not submitted - submitted - submitted

It's not wrong to think that our halves struggle to be creative because they don't have time and space because our forwards are continuously put on their backs.

Richard Horne was top of the try assists, we can create. We have a rank attack because we have a rank pack.

Read a really interesting article by Brian Smith on his website recently addressing why some teams struggle to be creative in attack.

His argument emphasised the importance of coaching - less in terms of creating plans - but in simulating game like situations in training for players to develop both their creative skills and decision making without being slated for their mistakes. Mistakes simply lead to more practice until the creative skills and decision making improve and are hard wired giving confidence to perform under pressure.

This sounds obvious in a way but makes you think about our team. Last Saturday, you could see an almost hard wired confidence in our defence, while it was obvious there was no confidence at all in attack, even though we clearly do have players with potential to be skilful and creative.

There has to be a reason for this, and following Smithies argument it is hard to look past coaching or training methods, instead of people's natural tendencies to say we should change personnel again(!) or that our forwards were dominated when they were not.