That`s why London`s crowds are huge is it ?!
How many million people live in London ? What is Harlequins average attendance ?

Similar to Salfords?

I think Widnes would have and will be a huge success. I'd go so far as to say their rise would mirror that of our friends over the river. More so, because they have the stadium to back it up. As the franchise criteria last time was heavily stacked towards good stadia I bet their bid was strong - financial history being the weak link.

Few clubs have room to be pious about tipping over into bankruptcy, however. If key backers pulled out tomorrow many clubs would go before the year's out. We were almost there a decade or so ago.

Widnes' core fan base is strong. The Welsh one isn't, no matter how much people want expansion there, people just aren't interested, not in South Wales, anyway. Even the iconic players from there are Union born and bred - Billy Boston, Clive Sullivan. They were lured by League's money only, Union was certainly Boston's game and love.

Our game was one of their biggest crowds last year - over half of the 4000 or so were Hull fans. The Welsh fans I spoke to were predominantly Union fans come for a quirky look. They were clueless - we had to keep telling them what was going on. How many do you think persevered through the season?

I am for expansion of the game. I think London is worth sticking with because of the huge interest there now in schools and the development of the youth game. London adults still aren't interested in numbers, though. We'll have to wait another decade or so before those youth learning the game now go to watch as adults for the love of the game. But, as I said, it's taken a while but the persistent sowing of seeds - despite years of them falling on stony ground - has now delivered a fledgling crop of tender green but promisingly dense new shoots.

Catalans success speaks for itself. Expansion has worked because people there already loved the game and were desperate for the opportunity to join in.

I think this is the key to expansion - go where the people want it. I honestly think Paris should be the next venture for that very reason.

But South Wales will be another London - decades of pouring money into it for very little return. Why are the RFL citing Widnes as the potential merger club? Because it will succeed there.

I'd just be angry as a Widnes fan that they were overlooked until it suited.

too near home to reply that one i am afraid , we are guilty of that ourselves arent we in a simialr fashion??

what about the people who thought a weekend in cardiff whilst going down to newport to watch the game would be a good idea.

when you look at the teams that made the franchise cut it actual turned out being the teams in SL and the top 2 NL clubs so if as in previous years of promotion and relegation that the league decide to have 2 up and none down to expand Celtic would of made the cut. even if they had been relegated this season then Barrow would of been the top team with Halifax next in line. so I cant see why those decisions why just against widnes.

I actually think widnes could make a good go of SL under O'conner but I also feel a second french club could add alot to the sport wether they are ready is another question

A Parisian side will never work as RL is very regional in France as it is here. Northern France is very Union based and Southern France is League based.

Toulouse or even a Northern Spain side would be the way to go in Europe now.

Yes they are. The grass roots development there is strong, and considering the rubbish season they had, crowds were decent. And this is with many people staying away because of who owned the club.

There's enough interest there for an organisation to have sprung up already and organise a bid to run a side there in Championship One, based in Bridgend.


When did the RFL cite anything? I've been away from the PC for a while, but all I've seen so far is a rumour on RLFans started by a single poster.

I'd also be interested in how much cash has been poured into London over the years and what the return has been. I assume you have those figures to hand?

RL in Wales professionally will never work . The Welsh like the game but in Wales RU is a religion and will never be overtaken by RL.

Fair enough. I was going to suggest Spain or Toulouse knowing the success of the Barcelona gate against Wolves last season, but thought in the interests of expansion...

Friends live in a small French town in the Lot region where RL is huge. Further north than Toulouse, too. Would the thrust upwards to Paris be more welcomed in France than our limp attempt to inject down South in England?

Don't know. But the attempts to expand in Britain have been wearisome and costly. To the frustration of denied heartlands like Cumbria. Who's to say that an attempt to promote in Paris would prove less successful than London and South Wales? The French aren't as obsessed with the class distinction between Rugby League and Union as the Southerners here, after all.

I guess the main point I'm making is, why take League to those who aren't bothered when there's those that are that are deprived? delivering to demand is a certain way to expand, surely?

Book wrexham folks thats were it is been played

Crowds were awful, apart from when good Away support followed such as ours. There's also enough interest to run championship sides in Halifax, Sheffield, Dewsbury et al but that doesn't make them immediate SL material.


I'd also be interested in how much cash has been poured into Wales over the last couple of years and what the return has been. I assume you have those figures to hand?





Of course I haven't. But I'll wager its a hell of a lot more than has been give to Salford, Cas, Wakefield, Widnes, Leigh, Hull KR to name the underdogs. And also more than Warrington, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Hull and Saints who should, but aren't necessarily, be holding their own.

League is at a sticky point financially. Why invest to thrust teams that aren't needed on those that aren't interested? Expand, sure, but to those that want to get on board. Once all clubs are strong financially, experiment into the unknown again. Why stage another London marathon over the next 15 years to the Welsh who have their arms firmly crossed in refusal when you can take RL back to the masses in Cumbria and tentatively explore other options like Northern France, Spain or even the midlands?

You are Billy Boston and I claim my £5.


[size=59
( Do you need any more figs?)[/size

thought you was in bed gob sh-te

8 minutes after i text ye you posted on here

And the survey says.....




Your probably right, so its a blooming good job that it doesn't need too.

Some were between 7.5 million and 11 million, depending on who you talk too.

TV viewing figures for Super League are huge in London... they out weight Rugby Union. Has a lot to do with the Friday night slot but there you go. Theres a little fact for you.

So as I say, a well budgeted, well marketed business plan is key and Harlequins have never had that, not even close. Get the massive Australian community of London involved... play RL games there with Australian or American style piazaz and people will go. My job requires me to be innovative and to use a yuppy term, "think out of the box" and quite simply that is all that is required here, that and the money of course. The people and the intrest are already there and thats the biggest hurdle.

I'd go one further, if SL is to succeed in London and Wales, there needs to be local competition and so I believe that we should even be looking at were we can expand the game, rather than your idea of giving up, in those areas.

As I've already said, the London thing IS starting to pay off - after 20 years or so! - and I'm really excited about what's happening down there in terms of young people getting into the sport. RL will finally reap the rewards over the next decade BUT it has taken time and considerable bail-out money and other financial injections. London was the one we needed to crack and, yes, another team providing local competition is a sound step forward.

But why go through that pain again when expanding again? Go for another quick win and return like Catalans. Cumbria - nothern but currently an RL desert, or another French team - proven already. Somewhere that wants it, anyway.

Yes, and my point is that its only taken 20 years due to poor business planning.

Credible RL presence in both London and Wales could be achieved very quickly indeed with money and innovation. Bring a bit of flare, bring the entertainment, the proffesional cheerleaders, family entertainmnt, live music, advertise... advertise and then advertise some more and advertise it as an event - play to the strengths, advertise how exciting, fast paced the game is, advertise its family nature. There just simply not doing that at the moment, in either Wales or London.

You'll have to forgive me, I've been in the states all week and watching American football and so forth, and I think its rubbed off on me a bit, as well as the American enthusaism and flare. RL in our expansion areas, and for that matter in our established areas could really do with more of it IMO.

Heres one most people will probably laugh at, but its strikes me that RL is exactly the type of game the US would enjoy... if we could get serious backing and all of the above in place over there, I honestly believe that RL will expand far beyond just Wales. Its a very marketable game.

Personally I think we have to expand, I was unsure as to whether having a Welsh side in SL so early was a good thing, however I hope they are here to stay. They need the backing of all clubs & especially the RFL.

On the point about London:
To start quoting how many people live in London in an attempt to belittle Harlequins attendance is just ridiculous. There are so many differing reasons why it is taking a long time to get the numbers up.
1. Soccer, plus every other sport you can think of is played in schools/clubs. League is still relatively new
2. Ethnicity % of Greater London population. This has a huge effect on who will be interested.
3. London spans a huge area. Fulham/London have moved about a lot in their relatively short history so fan bases lost. Try travelling across London at any time of day and see how long it takes!
4. Marketing, as had been said already. Fairly inept & non existant, the RFL don't have a clue how to really push the game down here.
5. Schools, it is taking time but steadily the numbers are going up, parents are seeing that league is less dangerous than union, however soccer is still the big thing far and away as that's where the money is at.
LOads of others but I'm 3 sheets to the wind & its late



However the game is blossoming, my own club St.Albans cents have been in the Challenge cup a few times, won the National Conference and South London storm has mini rugby as young as u7's & all the way up to having 2 senior sides and an academy team.
Even in the local schools around St.Albans which is a massive union heartland our coach has gotten leagues going. We even had an u14's 9's day in August were a team from West Hull came down along with a Northampton team. The Northampton team won BTW.
It will take time for expansion and for the game to really take off away from the heartlands could take another 10-20 years but only IF the RFL can develop it properly. Sadly I just don't think the present encumbants have the ability to do so. I wish I could say we will have a truly national proffesional league in the future but the ways things are panning out I can't see it happening in the next 50 years that's for certain.

Oh Boy I had to check I was still on RL fans you do talk a lot of sense, in fact a lot of good reasoning all round, its simple we have a really great, great product, but our administrators and some of the newer clubs have no idea what the market is or even which segments they need to attract, its all magic and development, a sort of announce a team and they will come mentality that time and tie again has failed.

With some out of the box thinking and a lot of measured and strategic ground work we could expand successfully but tragically the quality of the product is once again being tarnish by the RL's inaility to get things right from the off and now with the move to wrexham and the new championship one club in South Wales we are just seeing the back covering by the RL that always comes along to try and save face.

The move will be a disaster or at least take years to come to any sort of fruition. Whilst the RL save face, the money they spend on doing so would be better channelled ito estalished clubs who are having a torrid time at the moment. There is no point in expanding in an ad hoc way if the established clubs fall by the wayside.

The Visagate affair, lack of promised ground improvements, quality of squad, poor attendances etc.etc. bear all the hallmarks of previous failed excursions into the realms of expansion.

But there is no doubt that history proves that we will now pour money into the black hole of Northy Wales an area with no infrastucture, whilst in the mean time, teams like Wakey will be on the brink and Rovers losing £8000 a week. With several others relying on Sugar Daddies to keep going. Measured, calculated and pre determined development and expansion is right but not at the expense of heartland clubs, one or more of whom will go under soon!!

Working outside the box....... I could not agree more....... however sadly I don't think that the RL has even got into the box yet!!!

People actually working within the RL structure there beg to differ. But I guess you know better.

Crowds were decent compared to some other more established sides, given that they barely won a game all year and were owned by someone who had already pi$$ed off most of the ptential fan base before he even got involved with Crusaders. The potential is there if someone can make a better than half-d attempt to exploit it.


Return on investment is always kind of hard to quantify in cases like this, although Crusaders tanking puts any return at risk now anyway.

And I don't have numbers to hand because I'm not using any to try and justify things nor making unsubstantiated claims culled from gossip on these boards instead of actual research.



So it's all paranoid guesswork and unsubstantiated whinging?

Thought so.


South Wales IS an area that wants to get on board FFS.

Deary me.

I don`t know better unlike you, as you have stated .
Just expressing an opinion that expansionism on the whole has not worked . Catalans has proved successful . London in various different venues have survived .
But how long can London go on ?
We as Hull FC fans should be thankful expanding the game in the North East failed ! Remember the merger ?
Cardiff , Nottingham , Kent Invicta , Mansfield have tried and failed.
Clubs from outside the M62 corridor may survive in the lower leagues , apart from Catalans and to a lesser degree Harlequins may survive.
As for people within the RL strucuture ? If you are talking about the idiots that run our game then deary me .
SL Clubs are in financial difficulties . Without SKY SL would fold. All Clubs are heavily reliant on the money from SKY. Without it they would not survive.

Is this not the case with most sports

Home crowds were comparable in their paucity only with Harlequins, the other British expansion project. Quins still aren't pulling them in after 20 odd years but at least the profile of RL is at an all time high in London schools and is the fastest growing sport down there. It's taken a hell of a long time, though.

I don't know the history of Samuel and friends - what did he do to so pi$$ off the Welsh? Genuine question.




You're right.

And neither did I.




Not really. The general consensus of opinion that is acknowledged to be true.



But IS it? You keep making sweeping statements like:

"People actually working within the RL structure there beg to differ. But I guess you know better." and

"Yes they are. The grass roots development there is strong, and considering the rubbish season they had, crowds were decent. And this is with many people staying away because of who owned the club."

...but not really backing it up with any evidence. Come on, Mr Scientist, you know you'd get a D- if you tried to write a conclusion to an experiment without justifying that conclusion by quoting your results.

Frankly, I've seen nothing to convince me that RL will take off big style in South Wales. I'd love to be shown otherwise, honestly. But I think the sport at this time cannot afford to have another 20 years of "establishment" of a new club to reluctant locals with the financial input from the authorities that that entails. That's crazy while so many Super League clubs look so rocky financially at the moment. What we really need to raise the profile is another success story like Catalans, not a continual relighting of a damp firework that may finally ignite in a decade or so.

Why force the issue when there's other places crying out for a bit of our wonderful game? Establish first with those who want it and then the others will clamour to get on board without having to be forced.

(And can we please stop replying in this "tit-for-tat" manner as all the copy and pasting is doing my nut in?

)