Maybe thats because he had such a nightmare when he did play there.

15 August 2004 - first team debut.

I think he's had experienced ball players to learn from Kosh.

Could you tell me when GB last produced a top class scrum half.?

I have watched since 76 and can think of Gregory who was truely world class ( even thats at a push), Edwards and .................................... ?

Millward was my time but he was already class in 76.

I am struggling now.

21st August 2005 ??

Ive never been a fan of him at 7 but that statements a bit ott and harsh for me.

Nope. He asked who was the last Hull born SH to play for GB. And his more general point was the lack of quality Scrum Halves produced locally - which has been an issue pretty much as long as I've been a supporter.

Not that we're exactly unique in that regard.

By the time he took the field, he hadn't played a game in nearly 3 months. And he isn't a 7 anyway - he was playing 6 for us at the time. Hardly surprising that he failed to impress.

Don't disagree, was just suggesting that Horne has never played well for GB, for various reasons.

No argument there.

He played well on his debut when he camed off the bench and played at hooker, produced some really good dummy half running.

i like r.horne,but ive never classed him as a scrum half,neither do i think cooke is.i just wonder why hull have never produced a top class number 7 in the last 25 years.i forget players,but i can only recall,maybe a couple of local scrum halves phil windley and mark hewitt,who were just average nothing more.all the 7 s hull have had in the last few years where either out of town eg brough,hepworth,smith,pickerhill or from abroad,eg. sterling,coleman,entat,mackey,dykes.l

Westerman didnt slip the net at all the demands he was asking for where basically to cover his parents loss of earnings through driving him over here all the time. It would have been madness to give a 15 year old what he was asking for.

I disagree all what has happened his body shape has changed meaning he has lost that bit of agility to buy that extra split second to help in his decision making process.

I agree, physical development can have a big influence on whether an outstanding junior kicks on, as can dedication/attitude. Personally, I think this is what we should be looking for in relation to Tommy Lee, just because the first team's doing badly at the moment it doesn't mean everything is wrong with the club.

For me, the criticisms of Ian P and others just don't stand up to scrutiny.
Our record of bringing through youngsters is pretty much as good as anyone. It is hit and miss at every club.

Look, for example at Leeds. Some players (McGuire, Burrow, Jones-Buchanan) have come through really well. Others have failed to live up to expectations - Ryan Bailey was the best prop prospect for years and years and Chev Walker was the next Mal Meninga - where is he now?


Others like Ryan Hall and Ablett are late developers, certainly in the case of Hall he didn't come through their junior system at all.

Pretty similar at Hull: R. Horne and Yeaman progressed to international level by their early twenties. Cooke became top class as did King briefly until HE decided (not the club) that he'd throw it all away. Same with others like Rich Fletcher - didn't have the attitude. Graham Horne - again attitude questions plus his physical development which left him not one thing nor the other.

Why have Tom Briscoe and Mike Burnett started to come through despite our shambolic first team? They've got the attitude...

leeds
st helens
wigan
bradford
widnes
castleford

have all produced more internationals than Hull in the last 25 years

Good post.

On whose advice, direction and programme did he change shape icon_eek.gif

anyone like a guess ?

a)The pope b)Micheal Jackson c)Hull FC coaches +conditioners

Tommy was bulked up far too quickly and for what purpose, it proved to be his undoing. Which sort of backs up my charge that the club are trying to develope what they need not what the player needs. The club have made some very silly decisions on player developement and treatment over the years, Jason Smiths medical advice when he was here.............. ring any bells.
Sure anyone can make mistakes, but the mistakes are starting to mount up and unless some one gets a grip ASAP its on a downward spiral. Changes to the whole set up next year will IMHO not help players or the game.

Can I add: d) basic genetics - at least up to a point.

If the club are trying to develop what they need (which any club would do)I'm a bit stumped as to why they would want to develop a promising half back (like gold dust) into a hooker come back row forward.

Its their get out clause because there is a distinct lack of knowhow in developing half backs these days (and not just at Hull).

Undoubtedly true, but it doesn't entirely negate the genetics point.

Think Scott Moore (Tommy's half back partner for GB academy) was a very similar case. Only difference being he has now made the grade in a role which his body is suited to.

Moore has been able to make the hooking role his own at Huddersfield, Lee would never be able to do that at Hull due to Berrigan been about. FWIW I think Lee has performed very well at hooker this season in particular, and i think he has a rosy future in that role given the right encouragement and gametime to aid his development. Something he clearly won't get at Hull.

If Hull didn't have Berrigan i'd be quite happy with Lee as starting hooker and Houghton as interchange/impact.

You could live with that but only if we had a top class 7. That's been the problem we've rarely had quality in both positions at the same time. Having a top class 7 here for the last few years may have had a very positive effect on players like Lee and Houghton. Berrigan for all his class and undoubted great record wasn't the right player at the right time. Same to some degree could be said about Swain in that a 7 would have been better though he had the added quality of leadership. Our recruitment policy has been reactive instead of planned and left a lot to be desired for many years. We've gone for the available name rather than the need and believed we could make do elsewhere. We are suffering from it now. It's ironic that we could now let Lee go when we're going to have that top class 7 coming in. Are we planning what we do when Long and Berrigan go/retire? I hope so but I doubt it.

Thats what would worry me. They will both go at the same time and will take some replacing.

If we are planning long term bearing in mind the reduction over overseas/non-fed trained etc then maybe we should follow the Giants lead and be looking in the championship for a talented young scrum half who could develop alongside the Long and Berrigans in a full time environment.

What about the U18s 7 that we have? 2 or 3 years playing/training with Long should be ok?

If we stop trying to turn every 7 we unearth into a 9 and every natural 9 into a 13 we may be ok!!