Im being careful WITH my glass!

I wouldn't. I'd be bearing in mind the previous board who bankrupted the club just in time for it to be the reason why they didn't get a franchise.

And what makes you think that Crusaders got into SL at the expense of Widnes as opposed to any other unsuccessful candidates?

Just because Crusaders have been torpedoed by Samuels and the clowns he put in charge of the club doesn't automatically mean that Widnes would have been a huge success story in their place.

And as disastrous as the situation appears to be now, a great deal of potential good has been done in terms of player and fanbase development in South Wales, if we can only keep a team down there to tap into it.

But its only 10am! Far to early... actually what am I saying, I'm Vegas, it really isn't too early.

Celtic or Crusaders or whatever they are called , another RL folly.
When will the RFL learn? Within the UK, professional RL will never expand.

Then we may as well all pack in, because if we don't expand there is no future for the game.

Completly disagree. It can, especially in London and Wales. You just need to look at the Sky sports viewing figures to realise there is the intrest. IMO, a lot of it has to do with business model which must have a really strong marketing stragegy.

100% correct.

Crusaders should have been allowed to grow organically, with a view to applying for a franchise in 2011, RL in Wales will work, but it needs to be based a bit further than 32 miles from a "historical" club (and it's hysterical fans)

That`s why London`s crowds are huge is it ?!
How many million people live in London ? What is Harlequins average attendance ?

Similar to Salfords?

I think Widnes would have and will be a huge success. I'd go so far as to say their rise would mirror that of our friends over the river. More so, because they have the stadium to back it up. As the franchise criteria last time was heavily stacked towards good stadia I bet their bid was strong - financial history being the weak link.

Few clubs have room to be pious about tipping over into bankruptcy, however. If key backers pulled out tomorrow many clubs would go before the year's out. We were almost there a decade or so ago.

Widnes' core fan base is strong. The Welsh one isn't, no matter how much people want expansion there, people just aren't interested, not in South Wales, anyway. Even the iconic players from there are Union born and bred - Billy Boston, Clive Sullivan. They were lured by League's money only, Union was certainly Boston's game and love.

Our game was one of their biggest crowds last year - over half of the 4000 or so were Hull fans. The Welsh fans I spoke to were predominantly Union fans come for a quirky look. They were clueless - we had to keep telling them what was going on. How many do you think persevered through the season?

I am for expansion of the game. I think London is worth sticking with because of the huge interest there now in schools and the development of the youth game. London adults still aren't interested in numbers, though. We'll have to wait another decade or so before those youth learning the game now go to watch as adults for the love of the game. But, as I said, it's taken a while but the persistent sowing of seeds - despite years of them falling on stony ground - has now delivered a fledgling crop of tender green but promisingly dense new shoots.

Catalans success speaks for itself. Expansion has worked because people there already loved the game and were desperate for the opportunity to join in.

I think this is the key to expansion - go where the people want it. I honestly think Paris should be the next venture for that very reason.

But South Wales will be another London - decades of pouring money into it for very little return. Why are the RFL citing Widnes as the potential merger club? Because it will succeed there.

I'd just be angry as a Widnes fan that they were overlooked until it suited.

too near home to reply that one i am afraid , we are guilty of that ourselves arent we in a simialr fashion??

what about the people who thought a weekend in cardiff whilst going down to newport to watch the game would be a good idea.

when you look at the teams that made the franchise cut it actual turned out being the teams in SL and the top 2 NL clubs so if as in previous years of promotion and relegation that the league decide to have 2 up and none down to expand Celtic would of made the cut. even if they had been relegated this season then Barrow would of been the top team with Halifax next in line. so I cant see why those decisions why just against widnes.

I actually think widnes could make a good go of SL under O'conner but I also feel a second french club could add alot to the sport wether they are ready is another question

A Parisian side will never work as RL is very regional in France as it is here. Northern France is very Union based and Southern France is League based.

Toulouse or even a Northern Spain side would be the way to go in Europe now.

Yes they are. The grass roots development there is strong, and considering the rubbish season they had, crowds were decent. And this is with many people staying away because of who owned the club.

There's enough interest there for an organisation to have sprung up already and organise a bid to run a side there in Championship One, based in Bridgend.


When did the RFL cite anything? I've been away from the PC for a while, but all I've seen so far is a rumour on RLFans started by a single poster.

I'd also be interested in how much cash has been poured into London over the years and what the return has been. I assume you have those figures to hand?

RL in Wales professionally will never work . The Welsh like the game but in Wales RU is a religion and will never be overtaken by RL.

Fair enough. I was going to suggest Spain or Toulouse knowing the success of the Barcelona gate against Wolves last season, but thought in the interests of expansion...

Friends live in a small French town in the Lot region where RL is huge. Further north than Toulouse, too. Would the thrust upwards to Paris be more welcomed in France than our limp attempt to inject down South in England?

Don't know. But the attempts to expand in Britain have been wearisome and costly. To the frustration of denied heartlands like Cumbria. Who's to say that an attempt to promote in Paris would prove less successful than London and South Wales? The French aren't as obsessed with the class distinction between Rugby League and Union as the Southerners here, after all.

I guess the main point I'm making is, why take League to those who aren't bothered when there's those that are that are deprived? delivering to demand is a certain way to expand, surely?

Book wrexham folks thats were it is been played

Crowds were awful, apart from when good Away support followed such as ours. There's also enough interest to run championship sides in Halifax, Sheffield, Dewsbury et al but that doesn't make them immediate SL material.


I'd also be interested in how much cash has been poured into Wales over the last couple of years and what the return has been. I assume you have those figures to hand?





Of course I haven't. But I'll wager its a hell of a lot more than has been give to Salford, Cas, Wakefield, Widnes, Leigh, Hull KR to name the underdogs. And also more than Warrington, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Hull and Saints who should, but aren't necessarily, be holding their own.

League is at a sticky point financially. Why invest to thrust teams that aren't needed on those that aren't interested? Expand, sure, but to those that want to get on board. Once all clubs are strong financially, experiment into the unknown again. Why stage another London marathon over the next 15 years to the Welsh who have their arms firmly crossed in refusal when you can take RL back to the masses in Cumbria and tentatively explore other options like Northern France, Spain or even the midlands?

You are Billy Boston and I claim my £5.


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( Do you need any more figs?)[/size

thought you was in bed gob sh-te

8 minutes after i text ye you posted on here

And the survey says.....




Your probably right, so its a blooming good job that it doesn't need too.

Some were between 7.5 million and 11 million, depending on who you talk too.

TV viewing figures for Super League are huge in London... they out weight Rugby Union. Has a lot to do with the Friday night slot but there you go. Theres a little fact for you.

So as I say, a well budgeted, well marketed business plan is key and Harlequins have never had that, not even close. Get the massive Australian community of London involved... play RL games there with Australian or American style piazaz and people will go. My job requires me to be innovative and to use a yuppy term, "think out of the box" and quite simply that is all that is required here, that and the money of course. The people and the intrest are already there and thats the biggest hurdle.

I'd go one further, if SL is to succeed in London and Wales, there needs to be local competition and so I believe that we should even be looking at were we can expand the game, rather than your idea of giving up, in those areas.

As I've already said, the London thing IS starting to pay off - after 20 years or so! - and I'm really excited about what's happening down there in terms of young people getting into the sport. RL will finally reap the rewards over the next decade BUT it has taken time and considerable bail-out money and other financial injections. London was the one we needed to crack and, yes, another team providing local competition is a sound step forward.

But why go through that pain again when expanding again? Go for another quick win and return like Catalans. Cumbria - nothern but currently an RL desert, or another French team - proven already. Somewhere that wants it, anyway.

Yes, and my point is that its only taken 20 years due to poor business planning.

Credible RL presence in both London and Wales could be achieved very quickly indeed with money and innovation. Bring a bit of flare, bring the entertainment, the proffesional cheerleaders, family entertainmnt, live music, advertise... advertise and then advertise some more and advertise it as an event - play to the strengths, advertise how exciting, fast paced the game is, advertise its family nature. There just simply not doing that at the moment, in either Wales or London.

You'll have to forgive me, I've been in the states all week and watching American football and so forth, and I think its rubbed off on me a bit, as well as the American enthusaism and flare. RL in our expansion areas, and for that matter in our established areas could really do with more of it IMO.

Heres one most people will probably laugh at, but its strikes me that RL is exactly the type of game the US would enjoy... if we could get serious backing and all of the above in place over there, I honestly believe that RL will expand far beyond just Wales. Its a very marketable game.