Whiting got a boot in the nuts and struggled after that.

Whiting started very well but faded as did many of our forwards. The penalty was bad but Westerman turning the ball over in farcical and amateurish fashion when all he had to do was get up and play it and we would have scored was without doubt the game changing moment for me.

Fair enough, I was just responding to someone saying we missed him whilst he was off the pitch and that Galea was poor. Whiting played his part in a poor performance and I don't think it's right to exclude him and have a pop at Galea, especially when we outscored Cas from the point Whiting went off and Galea was on.

The follow up 'tackle' effort was even worse.

And I think the game swung in that 5 minute spell with errors from several players, I'd hesitate to pick out one instance as the most critical, it was an accumulation.

Whiting was on the receiving end of 3 off the ball and late shots from Millington in the first half and never really seemed to recover.

Steady. Westerman's fan club will say you clearly know nothing about the game if you cite his error as pivotal.

It was a poor option and he certainly should have not tried to offload. However it wasn't responsible for the conceding of 3 tries.

Yes - but he should never have been making those tackles. I don't care who it was who did it but plays like Westy's under their posts with a ridiculous dump ball that had zero chance of success are what mid-lower table teams do. There were plenty of others putting the ball down in the first half - ridiculous pass from Crookes to no one and Watts binning it. If you retain possession you do less tackling and the tackling you do is better quality. But from the time that ball was given to Cas under their sticks as opposed to us being 3 scores out the game went.

Again, fair enough, I just don't see why he seems to be bulletproof when he doesn't play well and people seem to try and exclude him from criticism or absolve him from blame by saying others were more at fault. He should be judged as fairly as the rest of them and on the merits or otherwise of his own performances, and tonight he was amongst those who were not good for us.

It wasn't just a poor option, it was a poor effort at it, too. Was never going to come off, panic rugby.

I've been accused of deliberate and subconscious bias against him in the past which is all rubbish. It was the game changing play in my opinion but it doesn't excuse other players failings and the embarrassment of seeing Whiting, Lynch and Watts being swatted away like schoolboys under our own sticks. That play though was Westy to a tee - brilliant break one minute then way below standard another.

Haven't read the rest of the thread but we actually said at the time he should be taken off especially after the physio had been out to him 3 times in 5 minutes.

Exactly. But it would have needed a near miracle effort to get that ball away correctly in his wrong hand as he fell away. Sheer panic as you say but not affordable at this level or rather the level we aspire to reach.

Totally agree.

Hold up, the one I'm on about is the second Cas play after a penalty that he gave away piggy-backed them upfield. How is it not down to him and 'he should not be making those tackles'?

Sorry was the penalty not straight after the Westerman ball loss ? I thought Whiting faded badly and was very static defensively for most of the second half.

No, it was the second tackle after the kick off from Chase's try. Westerman's brain fart was before the Chase try.

All fans have bias, the only way to be neutral is if you don't care. I believe that what I said in the past was that you appear to have a slight bias against Westerman and for Whiting.

I would just point out that this discussion started because I commented on Whiting not playing well and your immediate response was to point out Westerman's error.

Fair enough my bad. Poor penalty and he looked shot to me so should have been replaced. I'm just annoyed because structurally we look half decent but mentally I thought there were some corners cut all the way through the game in both attack and defence and in the end it bit us hard. We've not made that step yet that eradicates that 95% of the time. In fact we've done it in 3 of our last 4 games.

That was because Westerman's error was in my view the turning point whereas you had previously suggested in your opinion that it was down to Whiting so I simply answered that point directly. As I've posted elsewhere several times there were many players at fault during the game.

And I would add that i believe you are clearly biased in favour of Westerman over Whiting

I still think it just boils down to the fact that we don't open defences often enough. I thought our plays in their 40 in the first half were poor and we should have posted more points. When we don't convert our chances, we then seem to have a mentality where we try to score off every play instead of being patient, which just makes it worse. Then we find ourselves chasing the game and it's just a vicious circle. It's like when it was 24 apiece and we gave away the Clare try. If we'd had the lead either through any one of the bombed chances or just one of the missed goalkicks I don't think we chase that bomb so recklessly and he probably doesn't score. If we just get that little bit more clinical game to game I think we'll see far less nerves/panic rugby.

I didn't think Holdsworth did a very good job of organising us or calming us down tonight TBH.

Agreed particularly in the first half where we had ball and field position. Hard to legislate for Crookes just chucking the ball in field to them or Watts failing to catch a simple ball mind. Crooks as well after the Cas mistake second half failing to execute a simple catch. We're not polished enough yet but our defence, formerly half decent, is going backwards literally and metaphorically and at this stage of the year that's a big worry.

Sorry, didn't mean my first post to sound like I was attributing the turning point to Whiting. Initially I was objecting to the claim that he was missed when he went off and that Galea was poor, so was just trying to point out that Whiting cost us at times tonight so I didn't see why that should be.

I agree about there being many players at fault. I'd say that that 5-10 minute spell was the turning point, but I'd be less inclined to single out any one incident during that spell, as if you cut any one of them out and take 6 points off Cas' scoreline we probably win the game (and even with them all, we still could have).

I reckon you're right. But then, isn't it in the British makeup to root for the underdog?

Seriously, though, it's not that I prefer Westerman to Whiting. I think both are very good and would not like to see either leave. What it is that I object to is that it seems as if Whiting is never picked up for any failings, whereas there seems to be a keenness and almost revelry in doing so for Westerman. Similarly with Galea, which was how I actually started on this in the first place.

TBF if Lineham wasnt having treatment for cramp on the other side of the pitch I dont think they score that try. Seriously what is it with Lineham getting cramp in virtually every single game?

We've started getting dominated in the middle, that's the problem with our defence IMO. I don't think O'Meley and Green are playing for long enough, and it's having a detrimental effect on Lynch and Watts. The latter 2 don't seem anywhere near as aggressive as the former 2 either. I personally think that after a brief month and a half-ish of upturn, Lynch is wobbling a bit again recently (especially in attack), and he's being asked to play too long, and I think Watts has lost too much weight, he seems to be built like a backrower now. That terrible spell was when Lynch and Watts had been going about 30-40 minutes, I don't think that was coincidence.

I'd change the pairings, personally. Start with Watts and O'Meley and have Lynch play with Green from the bench.