having been a supporter for 30 odd years now i am some what dismayed by our expectation levels.Am i out of order to say that a club the size of hull , getting the crowds we get week in week out, generating over a million pounds in merchandise year on year, playing at one of the best stadia in super league are happy to be just in the play offs. when i look at the likes of huddersfield and warrington ( no disrespect to these two )they seem to have far more ambition than us . we are a bigger and richer club than both these clubs so why are we light years away from them on the pitch. i am getting a tad fed up now off having one thing to crow about every year and that is how well we have done to make a profit again. well so what . i am sick of watching crap rugby and listening to the same old excuses week in week out.as a club we are becoming a laughing stock. i splased out again this year on two passes and only 3 games in i bitterly regret it . after 10 mins against leeds its clear we are no further on than last year as far as playing good rugby is concerned. any body else think i am being fair in my assesment that we should consistantly be in the top 4 and challenging for honours .

You say what we all say,the club seems to be run by people with no ambition.

We got our annual accounts in early though

The club MUST invest in quality, both in terms of players and coaches. Only by investing in a top class coach will we challenge on a regular basis. Sadly I don't see it happening.

Depends on how you define a big club. If its on fans base, then yes, we are a big club. Unfortunately thats the only box we tick now.

Wire and Hudds have rich backers. We don't.

Personally I think far too many have jumped on the "playing boring / crap rugby" bandwagon. The major issue is, as a team, we do not do the basics well enough to even think about setting a platform.

Having watched the Wigan / St George game, they drove when they had too and broke when they could

Too quickly some fans start to spout "its just 5 drive and a kick". Having been at Hudds on Sunday and heard these very words you realise that some fans do not have any appreciation of the playing side of the game. Even a school coach would want safety first within your own quarter, which is exactly what we did. You cannot expect any team to open up within their own 20 yard line. But this is part of the bigger problem, we are too easy to defend against. Take the Leeds game and the Hudds game. Both times, the opposition have been flying out of the line to approach our ball carrier so that minimal yards are made. Why are Hull's defensive line not doing the same??

We are consistantly put into a deep position by Brough / Sinfield kicking early in the tackle count as they know we are easily contained. We are slow at the play the ball and hence rarely get the opposition on the back foot. Our own kicking game is woeful. It was embarrassing to witness so many knock on's, on many occasions these were unforced errors.

The basics of the game is the problem. Address these with a coach who can instill self belief and who has some tactical awareness and we will be in a position to look at 7th or 8th. For higher than that we need half a dozen new players.

The point about basics is a very good one and has been made on here plenty of times, we don't need tonnes of ideas and creativity we just need to be better technically at winning the floor in both attack and defence. We need to support much more and we need runners in the attacking line. The WCC was about two teams who do the basics superbly and were a little more expansive nearer the line.

However you talk about 7th or 8th, the same players and coach got us 6th last season so I can't agree on that.

But thats the whole point, the same personnel got us to 6th last year. We have the same personnel, just a year older whilst most other clubs have a fresh influx of players to complement their team. We get a fast (yet fragile looking winger), a Loose Fowards being played at 2nd row and 2 panic buys after our top earner wanted away and one of your only flair players spend too much time in the ale house.

Last season we had an air of optomism early season. That is non existant this season as it seems the team is still on teh same decline from the end of 2010. If we make the 8 we will be fortunate.

Personally im getting to the point of walking away from Hull FC. The board and their continual backing of Agar are taking the club further and further backwards with every game played and i know that even if Agar is sacked that the same problems will persist because of the passionless money orientated people who run us are not interested in results. Every one can see the playing side is an utter shambles yet nothing changes and fans are getting more and more alienated and i feel like the club are now cheating the fans by completely ignoring our opinions on the standard of rugby and coaching. Imo the club is there because of the fans and not the other way round but if Hull FC keep treating us with the contempt it is at present then many more will walk away and the club will find itself having major problems off the field too.

Where I work a lot have said the same, I honestly believe this could be prove very costly for Hull FC

As I've said all along, a club of our size has no divine right to win trophies. But we should be serious contenders every single season with the off-field set up we've got. Anything less is under-achieving.

One of the best posts on here for ages amongst a mountain of drivel. The whole '5 drives and a kick' garbage is just that. Hull's improvement last year was in the main down to better defence - a facet of the game that alarmingly has not reached the same level this season. We conceded fewer points last year and as a result were able to win a number of close games - all bar one at home was it ? However as MMJ says the poor kicking game has massively hampered us - preventing enough decent field position. With that lack of field position through poor kicking it's even more critical that errors are kept out of the play - something else that has been way too prevalent this year.

The two improvements we need to make IMO are to defend with more speed/structure and aggression - making it much harder for the opposition to progress. This should be possible with the current playing staff and we are way off where we were last year - which even then wasn't as good as it could have been. It's the failure in this area that makes me seriously question whether our players, with one or two (Australian) exceptions are anywhere near fit enough. The second improvement is to completely replace our kicking game with one of SL standard, This is a recruitment issue which should have been addressed as we don't have personnel with the necessary skill to achieve this consistently (or ever in fact).

People like to talk about the attacking flair of Wigan. For much of the Wigan Saints game at Cardiff Wigan drove the ball one out away from their own territory. Low risk mistake free football in their own half. Then on the back of a good kick chase they would pressure an error. In the opposition half they are more expansive but not at the expense of doing the hard yards to get them into an attacking position. All the top teams do this - and it's based upon a strong high work ethic defence and keeping things tight until field position allows otherwise. As MMJ says we're never in these positions often enough.

With the exception of Berrigan (obviously a quality player) this team reached 6th last year and should be able to go higher. But MMJ is right - it's a mastery of the basics that is needed - and that means aggressive defence and fewer handling errors and penalties. If/when Agar leaves us he will go because of failures to achieve in these areas - not because of the '5 drives and a kick' that many of the top teams base their basic game around - they just do it efficiently and well.

exactly what i have just intimated on another thread, think the club is heading for a crisis if the present regime dont act.

Whilst I'd agree to a point, it's blindingly obvious that most teams will play five drives and a kick in their own half. I think the whole 'five drives and a kick' mantra on here has become a convenient metaphor for our lack of decent attacking play no matter what our field position. Our lack of dummy runners, poor backing up and overall lack of organisation (not to mention the incredibly poor forward rotation adversely affecting our go forward) conspire to mean that we generally produce lacklustre rugby. You can put a certain amount of this down to lack of halfbacks, of course, but it's by no means the sole cause.

The points you mention are valid but it's the frailties in defence (fitness) and kicking game are the biggest problems we face.

I agree. What I was getting at was that the 'five drives and a kick' thing is a symptom rather than a cause. But that fact doesn't make it any less frustrating to watch.

For me 5 drives and a kick needs a bit of expanding

5 drives where the runner makes 3 yards, barely looks to offload, gets dominated in the tackle, runs straight into the markers followed by a kick straight to the fullback/winger.

If it was 5 decent drives, backed up by support play and the occasional offload then a kick into space (perhaps turning the fullback round), we'd be so much better. And yes, I'm aware that expansive rugby in your own 20 is not sensible, but if we made more ground ourselves and moved the defensive line up more quickly when the oppo are in their own half, we wouldn't have to come back from our own 20.

I don't think we're too bad at making ground. For sure the kick is usually pathetic at the end. As for your comments re defence exactly right - massive failing for us.

Good job we aren't Saints fans, they have already hung Simmo out to dry, ah well if he gets the boot there we can have him here

No doubt they are a 'club in crisis'.

The difference with Saints is that they have a history of rectifying problems which is the main reason why they've won so many trophies. We'll just bumble along, finish in mid-table if we're lucky and then talk about how 2012 will be the big year!

Totally agree the amount of people i know who can't be ar$ed to go now and take it or leave it is untrue.

They are bored of the predictable dour rugby we serve up on a regular basis and will continue to do so until the head coach had been removed, and once you lose those fans there hard to entince back and they will find something else to fill the void.

We hear all this about Kath knows her rugby, however i must disagree because if she did we wouldn't have Rich in charge nice bloke yes, head coach no. We are a massive club but the fans ambition is not matched by the boards imo and until this regime is starting to be hit in the pocket with a drop in attendances nothing will change.

I think that's exactly the point. If you're going to do the "5 drives and a kick" (and sometimes you have to) it needs a good kick and and a good chase at the end of it.