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Sounds familiar? This Ryan Whitcut sounds a bit dodgy doesnt he? The poor Bulls fans are in the same poo again! I wish there was more people with more money in the game!

forgive me but I am unsure on this... Is this all stemming from around 1997-2003 when Bradford splashed the cash?

I think their business plan was dependent upon success to cover the outgoings. When that dried up financial demise was inevitable.

First time possibly but not this. They started with a blank balance sheet after their last administration, they have just been spending way beyond their means to the tune of 1.2 million or so. Sound familiar?

If that's the case then no, I don't think it's an isolated incident....

How we have stayed out of the doo-doo I've no diea, it's usually Cas that are negative trend setters.

Though it all goes to show you never know what's round the corner.

We have a 14 team division of which at least five teams have been [publically struggling in the last three years - i still feel that reducing the teams at the top level is papering over the cracks.

Jack Fulton, simple as.

Yep, as much as some Cas don't want to hear it, without him they would be bumping along with us.

I think this is just from the last year or so, i.e some inherited debt and some new debt from ok bulls.
I was speaking to a SL club's CEO earlier this year (on an unrelated matter) and we briefly discussed the situation at Wakefield, and i mentioned Cas being a similar club to us. He replied with if Wakefield had someone putting in £30k per month (for wages) like Jack Fulton did at Cas, Wakefield might be in a slightly better place.
That takes nothing away from the bad management at our club in the past by the way, but it does go to show the levels of finance needed and the murky layers of confusing financial camouflage put accross by the clubs and the rfl in order to make all look well, when to the average RL supporting man on the street; everything looks far from it.
What ever these guys (at the bulls) have discovered should have turned up during their due dilligence, if it was hidden i would suggest they need to be on the blower to their solicitors.
I said on the broncos thread that i'd love to see the sales pitch that the clubs owners/rfl are using to sell the club on, because the intended buyers are buying a huge loss making club with zero history of turning in a healthy balance sheet. That is one bit of turd polishing i would love to witness because either the buyer is completely feckless or someone is telling pork pies and misselling something.
Ive said it before and i'll say it again (one or two clubs apart) our game is on a knife edge, caused by and covered up by its own governing body.

well aye i guess... Even so, every club has investors, we seem to have spent within our means.

Seem to.

And I disagree Khlav, I don't think we are in any doubt of that fact. It's universally accepted by anyone with half a br..... Ah I see your point

No not really, that early spending was based on a huge upswing in income kicked off with the newlove sale the superleague launch, two wembley trips in 96 and 97, ands average attendances well over 10,000. The success paid for itself with prize money, gate money, sponsors etc through that period. The problems IMO came when the incomes dropped to more "normal" levels, probably around 2006-2008 ish, coupled with the harris payout and trying to continue to spend the same, if not more, to recapture earlier success. Thats when the books stopped balancing, but rather than pull back and reset expectations the people in charge just kept spending with huge wages going to more and more average players. Huge wage for Henry Paul is one thing, huge wage for Micheal Platt? Thats something else!

IMO this is still the fall out from the overspending and lack of investment post 2005/06. At least the new finance guy on the board is a expert in debt management....should be handy for us



It looks like our new board are following wakeys example, and not before time IMHO, spend what we earn...not rocket science is it?

certainly not - Wakefield's chairman seems to have accepted that you've to go two steps backwards to go three forwards in these situations.

The only downside is it's a bad season to have to go two steps back...

But I'm sure bradford have enough strength in all other areas to balance things out in the long run

Perfectly in tune with our luck! If P&R comes in and we go down, so be it, Id rather be in the championship with a viable club to support fighting to get back into SL than an unrealistic Sl club being liquidated and left with nothing to support.

Its impossible to argue with that logic.




That said thousands will dissapear as quickly as they appeared, so my logic might be flawed

our squad is thin enough that we can't help be in a dog-fight. But bring it on! That's what sport is all about and I will love/hate every second of it



As you say, there's only so long anyone can punch above their weight

The difference between Wakefield and Bulls is how steep the climb is to be a Super League giant.
We may be in the same boat now, but I feel that if Bradford can sort their finances now, they will be able to take quick steps to get back to being a super club.
It still takes money, and success but the people of Bradford have supported a club like that recently and the sponsors have received the benefit of getting on board in recent years.
Once the issues are resolved, and I realise that could take two years or more, I think the crowds would roll back to see a top team.

Wakefield could solve all their problems, and have a successful team but it would be hard work to create a big club. The crowds would be bigger but we wouldn't get average 10k without either discounting tickets again in the short term, which we have proved is not good, or bringing them in gradualy which could take 5-10 years of success to do (not to mention Newmarket)
In addition, for all the recent failure, there are people at Bradford who recently managed a big rugby club business and could do again.
We haven't had a big business like that since the 60s.

So although we are in similar positions now, and arguably we are slightly better off because of the timing, we should still accept, in my opinion, that we are a potential mid table team with greater potential far ahead.
BUT I have always said, never underestimated mid table obscurity. Right now 5 years of being placed 8th or 9th would suit me fine.

Oh 1000's will vanish, and we'll rattle around in the empty main stand, but when you've already been stood with only 4000 others shivering on the Bradford Northern terraces in the p!ssing rain

watching us getting pumped again your perspective is different to if, say, your first game was the 1997 cup final in the sun or 2003 Grand Final.

I get your drift!!

You have forgot to add that both WTW and Bulls have lost credit from local business and trust from once loyal supporters - two factors that won't be coming back any time soon. The damage done by previous regimes wiping hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of debt (to the local economy) is irrepairable.

I know this is something the Cas fans latch on to a lot but I have never seen a number to say how much debt was written off. Clearly some was but how much I don't know.
Things change, if you feel you will get benefit from going round again, you'll do it. You might just plan adifferent payment scheme if you do.

I think of this comes down to how you deal with it rathr than the fact that its happened (if that makes sense)!!
Most people, be that supporters or potential investors/sponsors/partners etc can differentiate between whos stiffed who d who is sorting out and the methodology.
I think our stock is actually being fairly well represented by the way MC has gone about his job.
Others may of course differ, but i think we've done it tough; and that is worth something.

Again typical Cas fan nonsense regularly peddled on the nut job forum.

As far as I'm aware WTRLFC have only ever been in Administration once. They may have been at some point in the 80's but the business was so small then the loss of a Chip shop would have been more devastating.

The CVA after the Pearman atrocity led to most creditors getting most of there cash back. The only company to seriously lose out were the outfit that built the boxes, this was if my memory serves me right was because Pearman and not the club made the purchase.

Ted was an habitual late payer which upset many but most businesses did just fine out of him for 14 years (including the CVA).

Now I'm not defending the way the club has been run in the last 20 or probably hundred years - it's been pee poor - however that doesn't justify Cas fans vastly over egging the pudding - give it a rest and get off you high horse.

Several administrations lead to many business’s (mostly local) not getting paid what they are owed. Credit rate is then zero and COD is the order of the day for anyone still wanting to trade. Getting the trust back from these local businesses can take decades.
The RFL (rightfully) wouldn’t allow WTW to go down the admin’ route again for this very reason.
If you follow the thread Vasty we are talking about WTW and Bulls – not just WTW.

Yes I know, but in our case despite popular belief it ONE administration. Bad though that is it's not the THREE that has become legend on the nut job forum.

Finally I think you are being hugely naive if you think most businesses who trade with RL clubs don't see them as a huge risk. They tend to consider them a a civic duty rather than a business opportunity and that includes Cas. I doubt any company has ever gone bust as a result of WTRLC or any other club as no sane business man would leave themselves so exposed.

That's not excusing it and I'd hoped by 2013 we'd all be over that.

Finally Finally if Castlefords creditors all called in what was owed them and demanded the payments they are probably well overdue Cas would go pop in 24 hours. Thankfully for you Futon stands as guarantor and unlike Glover you never totally take the mick.

Brilliant post. Couldn't agree more.