RL has survived all this time, so why by not expanding will it die? Throwing millions away on poorly supported teams isn't going to do the the RFLs coffers and thus it's survival very much is it?
As for our gates being not much more, are you having a laugh? Our gates are much higher, as I said previously we suffer because of our "1960s Liberian ground" but we have tried over the years to do something about it, equally our previous owner didn't help encourage fans to come.
But even still our lowest gates against teams with little or in the case of London, Catalan and Crusaders (practically no traveling support) still double Saturday nights attendance or the massive amount that flicked to the London v Crusaders game the week before.
So as far as I can see your talking out of the back of your head.
Apologies if you think thats hypocritical, but I just dont see what value Crusaders (and London for that matter) bring to the competition.

Are we really in a position to criticise another teams attendances and their standard of rugby?

Yes we are.

Really? Short memories some folk.

I don't think it's a case of short memorys really.
I think it's a sense of ever growing resentment that a club with little support and little value to add to the competition is being made to look the mutts nuts at the expense of us.
We have our problems and they are mostly of our own doing I accept that, but there are clubs in a worse state than us, but they are looked to be protected by the RFL.
I have no animosity tirades the club or their supporters just the system and those that wield the power.
What value is to be gained by other SL clubs when almost half of visiting clubs bring hardly any support?

The thing is expansion is here to stay and there is nothing we can do about that. Rather than picking holes in others application we should be looking to make the most of our own application. Like it or not we have had plenty of time to get our own house in order but have not, for whatever reason, been able to. Maybe now we have the management in place to move us forward lets just hope it's not to late.

But because the system is so transparently uneven, it is what we are left to do.
The frustration that no matter what you do and how good your application is, a team that is unsustainable and unnecessary will always beet you because of where it is, I find very frustrating.
Like I said before my animosity is towards those that set the rules not those who are governed by it.

I can see why people are unhappy with it, I feel the RFL's policy is misguided too. However, I don't think we're in the best position to do something that serves to add to animosity and draw attention to our own shortcomings. During our recent turmoil, we've had a fair amount of sympathy from fans of other clubs, and sniping can undermine that. As a club & supporters, our energies are best put behind our team in whatever way we can.

As for the wider issue of resentment towards the way things are done, it amazes me how much griping goes on which isn't channelled towards a more organised attempt to influence the RFL's policy. If fans lobbied hard, eiether through clubs, ISAs or a campaign directly to the RFL, they might at least force the RFL into something like a more open dialogue over the best way to develop the game for the future.

The rights or wrongs of our club has nothing whatsoever to do with Wrexham. Both are totally different issues.

Now back to Wrexham, it is not working and it will never work. The sooner that people realise this failed experiment is a bottomless money pit the better.
Infact Wrexham is holding back expansion. It is taking funds from the game that would be much better spent elsewhere. I would sooner see the money we are throwing at that failed club go to the scorpians or scholars where it would do some good and help grow the game properly from the grass roots upwards.

Prior to the start of last season I posted on here with regards a friend in South Wales stating the RL thing had little of interest with all the RU goings on at Magners League and International level with the general sporting public.

I got crucified on here just posting that simple thought from a local,Since then club failed in South Wales and is now struggling in North Wales which in my view am not bothered as my club is WTW.

After watching last nights game I see that the RL want expansion(which I firstly thought was fine) but again where are the Welsh names in the team,They are still a team full of Antipodeans and with 2/3 still more awaiting visas how in the world does this strengthen the home nations squads.

Again i'm just stating realism and facts not elaborating rumours etc.

Well said your 100% right.

In realistic terms, 5,000 isn't really much higher than 2,500. Neither are acceptable figures for top level competition. Crusaders actually averaged around 5,000 last year without the two games in Neath, the crowds may drop this year but that's still however many people who otherwise wouldn't have been watching the game. If you don't see how expansion clubs contribute to the competition, then there is really no point trying to debate with you. Just take my word for it that they do


Not sure what facts you are dealing in as there were 6 Welsh-born players in the 19 man squad for Saturday's game.

Are you for real?
£50,000 plus add on's such as food, drinks and merchandise isn't much, to a club that run up £2.2M in debt.
That is the attitude of failure, no business can afford to think like that if it wants to be successful. Under our previous administration supporters were given good reason not to come through dissatisfaction at the way the club was run, and as a result we were put in serious financial results as a result.
However there is no evidence at all to back up the assumption that the people of either north or south Wales will pay to see professional rugby league so the costs are quite beyond what an experimental club can generate.
Baring in mind that it still owes significant money to the RFL and will be minus some of it's SKY money for the next four years I think you are either oblivious or have some degree of certainty that the crusaders will be protected.
If it is the latter then that is what gets others backs up.

did this include the Magic weekend attendance ?

They averaged just over 4,500. But to the back end of the season their attendances significantly dropped. They got a good opening day crowd against Leeds 10k+ but this year only got 2,500. Swings and roundabouts i guess

Franchising is always going to turn fans against fans sadly as all fans want the best for their club and the clubs make individual decisions without thinking there's a consequence to themselves, to me it's a bit like 'lets all throw stones in the air and if they do hit someone's head on their way back down I hope it's not mine'

At the end of the day I'll worry that Crusaders make it through as much as you will worry that Wakey will, all the best for the future whatever it holds.

thanks for that, that's made me feel better

Assuming you're not a director of Crusaders, then I don't see what relevance the club's financial state has to you? I don't know what Crusaders or Wakefield's income or business model is like and I really don't care, that's a matter for the people in charge. If the club can't sustain themselves then they will go bust, and if they can sustain themselves then they will carry on. Getting would up about it won't achieve anything. All clubs need to be looking to improve attendances and I've never once suggested Crusaders crowd was acceptable. With 100+ years and the supposed tradition of sport in the area, 5,000 is not acceptable for Wakefield either. Wakefield fans are in no position to be smug about anything.

This quote is bang on the money. Let us get our own house in order.

The fact that you don't care about wether or not you have a business plan is indicative of your smugness not mine,safe in the knowledge that you are protected.
Home attendences- nowhere near good enough to sustain the club
Away attendences- add no value to home club, who have still got to run their business and are losing income everytime such a club visits.
The whole thing about Crusaders is that because they have been fast tracked into SL they have had no time to grow their fan base, and that is their achilles heel, both to the business and in the eyes of many RL fans and certainly of many RL fans at threatened clubs whose overall performance is better 100% than Crusaders.
You cannot justify one argument based on any kind of logical thought where Crusaders are a better option than any other SL side and I could probably argue that some NL1 sides are a better bet than Crusaders.
I would like to know what your equation is for working out, time existed related to attendance, as I'm sure 99.9% of clubs would fail it?

Not sure what facts you are dealing in as there were 6 Welsh-born players in the 19 man squad for Saturday's game.'"

:77p6tri2

Maybe but only 3 played(Jordan James is English born).

[u:77p6tri2But will these 3 get a game[/u


Very doubtfull i suspect.

For the umpteenth time, I am not a Crusaders fan. The club obviously has a business plan of some sort, I personally have no interest in it because it doesn't concern me at all, just as it doesn't concern you. If the home attendances aren't good enough to survive then the club will go bust, I don't understand why you are getting so wound up about the fact that they are not. The club weren't 'fast tracked', they were in the NL1 final in the year that they were promoted and so would have gone up even with automatic promotion and relegation. The club that year also had one of the highest average crowds in that league, they averaged more than Leigh. I would like to know how you feel Wakefield are performing '100% better' than Crusaders. Last year Wakefield's average crowd was only 1,300 higher than Crusaders' even with the games in Neath included. The club is far weaker on the field, has far poorer facilities and certainly are not in a stronger position financially. You could not argue that any 'NL1' clubs are better than Crusaders, because it's clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and are desperately looking for someone else to blame for the failure of your club. And I'll state it again in case you missed it: I am not a Crusaders fan, and I don't have anything against Wakefield. But your posts are not only ill-informed, they are extremely petty too.
No, 4 Welsh players played without including Jordan James. That's four that otherwise wouldn't be playing, and certainly goes against your theory of a 'team of antipodeans'. There were 8 Australians and 1 PNG player in the Crusaders team on Saturday, that's no worse than other clubs like Hull KR and it's not long since Wakefield were looking at those numbers of imports. I don't know if all the Welsh players will play in every game, there are others that will get a run too but I don't think that's really relevant, your argument was completely wrong as you suggested there were none.

well obviously.........please god, never be in my company socially, i suspect you arent out much anyway.

= argument won