Before we decide the make up of Super League and the lower divisions, we need to be clear on what we want from the game:

A strong international programme (including full tours) ?
Expansion of the game in the UK (and beyond) ?
Promotion and relegation to the top flight ?

Then set a plan and work to clear objectives.

In RL recent history we have had 14 clubs, cut to 12 and then back to 14, we've had promotion and relegation (including Castleford going down from 2nd bottom to protect Catalan)
There were promises of promotion for "qualifying" clubs, not granted, plus 4 clubs in administration and all of this within a small time frame.

There needs to be clear direction from the RFL, supported by the professional clubs with the prime objective being, to take the sport forward.

Finally, regarding clubs going into administration, for the sake of the game, this should probably mean automatic relegation.

There is a regular demand for promotion and relegation to the top flight. However, currently there are only 2 or 3 clubs who could possibly succeed in the top flight (Featherstone, Sheffield and Halifax) and of these, only Halifax could generate supporter numbers to sustain their club in SL (although it's worth remembering that their crowds were shocking last time they had the opportunity).

Also, we have 2 clubs currently who attract championship size crowds and 2 clubs operating out of outdated stadia.

Is it time for the game to insist that certain criteria are met, ie stadium criteria, minimum supporter numbers etc and then pull up the drawbridge or, should we go the other way and bring back annual promotion and relegation and is 14 clubs the right number for SL or should we expand or reduce the top division ?

As bizarre as it is, I quite like the two 12's and the three 8's, subject to the obvious difficulties being ironed out. It enables the top eight clubs to have their high intensity matches whilst opening the door to the also rans. Trinity are hardly likely to win the GF but they're more than capable of winning the secondary competition should they miss the cut in the first 11 rounds. I would've thought London would fall into the same category.

Although you may be right, it's like championship rugby re-branded and winning the 2nd tier comp is like a chocolate medal wrapped in foil.

Did you not enjoy winning the Division one flower pot and promotion to SL?

I actually like the idea of 2x12/3x8, but with the proviso that the funding of all 24 clubs involved would have to be brought closer together somehow. What it gives back is hope. Newport County have just got back into the soccer league and although no-one in their right mind would suggest that they'll ever win the premiership, the opportunity is there if they are good enough on field, which gives the supporters hope, however slim the chances.

What would be the minimum funding needed to run a full-time squad of say 25 players. Not one capable of beating Wigan, just to have full-time players with the associated auxiliary costs? Is RL big enough to support at minimum 24 full-time teams?

I think it has fewer flaws than the current system. Franchising can only work if you have more bidders meeting the minimum standard than you have places available. Can you imagine KFC awarding franchises to places that have no access road or no toilets or parking facilities? It can't be used to slowly improve towards minimum standards whilst struggling to prop up a failing business.

Hang on - where are these 4 expansion clubs in the top flight??? When I last looked there was one in SL and that club seems to be dying on its ar5e. Wrencat's right - we need to know where RL is going, a development plan - and if geographical expansion is a part of that there should be facility for both parachuting and development from the grassroots. But both have to be supported, nurtured, encouraged.
I agree that 32 years is too long but;
a) - there has to be a transparent pathway to the elite level for all clubs that aspire to it and
b) - if the plan for fledgling clubs had been in place in the 80s with appropriate support, resources, expectations etc, clubs like Hemel could, just possibly, be there or thereabouts now.
How is Hemel better than London? Well the truth is that neither is better than the other but Hemel is growing organically, London seems to going nowhere fast. Both need supporting.

Couldn't agree more - when designing large scale change, it's important to begin with the end in mind, otherwise it's unfocused and chaotic and people don't buy in.

The problem I have with the RFL is that they appear to do half a job - I can't say for certain if they know what they want to achieve with this restructure but if they do, they haven't told us, apart from some vague management speak about vibrancy and suchlike.

If they want to clear the decks to satisfy the wealthy club-owners - then say so; if it's something else - then say that instead. Either way, tell us what the aim is!

Bren, you can have big Nige's job for me, i'll get your nomination in tonight's post.

Think of the cost-saving - I eat a third of what he does and I only need a small chair!

There are 2 in there right now, Les Catalans ( a merged club which played in the French elite for a couple of years with the Guarantee of SL) and London. Previously Gateshead and Crusaders (you could also include PSG but they barely qualify as a club in anything but name, they were just a collection of players from other clubs). Im not saying that is a perfect record, im not even saying it is good. Simply that it is better than expecting clubs in expansion areas to build towards the top tier, we tried doing that for over a century, we had a 0% success rate.

There is no reason for us to assume that if Hemel had done what they did over the past few years back in the 1980’s they would be further on than they are now. We even saw clubs back in the 80’s try to go the organic route, like Kent Ivicta, Cardiff Blue Dragons, South Wales RLFC. They didn’t even make it to try.

The game has moved on from being able to see a small club challenge at the top and grow, even established heartland teams like Leigh, Fev ,Halifax simply can’t compete, even established SL heartland clubs like Cas are stuggling to keep pace. None of them can compete on a level playing field at the top table. The fact is, whether we like it or not, the most important thing to the success of a club whether they be an ambitious heartland side like Fev, an established SL side like Cas, or an expansion side like London or Sheffield, or even a prospective side like Newcastle or Nottingham is the same thing that kept Salford and Widnes alive and gave them even a little hope a rich man with deep pockets willing to invest. The hand to mouth existence which went before has gone at the very top. Leeds and Wigan and Wire and Saints and Hull etc aren’t scratching around for a tax bill, or a couple of grand here or there, the clubs who are struggle to compete. It doesn’t matter whether you are fev, fax, Toulouse, London or whoever your success and failure is based on money. You need it to compete and the game doesn’t have enough of it. So if David Hughes, Marwan Koukash, Andrew Glover, or some Dutch shipping magnate who wants a team in Amsterdam, wants to offer it to us we need a pretty good reason to turn it down.

the rules and regs are and im afraid will always be designed to cherry pick what in essence the RFL want as part of their Superduperlooper league. The clubs vote the bodies in who run red hall unfortunately there is a lot of back rubbing going on.

Super league for me as had its day, look at the crowds at the bigger clubs and the i don't care attitude from the sky team.

Bring back 2 up 2 down then you will see crowds at the lower teams grow .

I don't agree with your analysis of the crowds Mutley.
Folk usually turn up if their club looks like it may be relegated but, then if they do go down, the crowd numbers plummet and the newly promoted club(s) always take a while to stoke up interest.
I think the million pound game was the exception and nothing like the norm.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Halifax's crowds were awful last time they were in the top flight.

Problem with halifax is they are a football town and hearing the crowds football is prominent

Can't remember Halifax Towns crowds outdoing their rugby league neighbours

What ever our opinions either us Wakey fans or any clubs fans, we all know London will never be dropped from SL.

Expansion?
Fulham/Quins/London, Nottingham, Mansfield, Southend/Kent, Wales (Nth & Sth), Cardiff (??? did I dream that), Gateshead, Paris - and that's only the ones I can quickly think of.

It'll never work.

Even in the ‘million pound game’ season’ where the gods conspired to create a nigh on perfect storm of two near neighbours in the heartlands playing each other in the final game with the winner staying up, a situation that is about as good as relegation can provide, Bar that one game, attendances were uniformly awful. Crowds may go to one or two relegation deciders, but they don’t attend the rest of the year. The lower SL teams didn’t grow by being in a relegation battle, they fell.

I don't often agree with Smokey but, he's right on this one.
If the bottom 2 clubs look doomed halfway through the season their crowds wont grow, they start to drift away.
The only time that there is added interest is when there are a number of clubs in the relegation mix and then there is some added interest.
Plus, the downside of getting relegated, is that crowds absolutely plummet, which has happened to every club that has gone down, with the exception of Cas who, tbf to them, were hard done by when they were relegated from next to bottom.

I gave up on reading his posts after the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen that said that if something has never happened before it is reasonable to assume it never will.
The rolling eyes and yawn were more to do with the fact that he is still here rather than what he was saying.
It's OK advocating keeping London in SL at all costs when your club isn't one of the ones that would be at risk if they did that. Clubs should be in the top division on merit. To me that is promotion/relegation with no clubs falsely protected just because of their location.

Have to say Fordy, it's hard to argue with that but how should the game try and expand.
Should Toulouse be invited in, if they have the backing that many posters on the VT talk about ?

Do you go outside everyday preparing for pasta to rain down from the Sky? Do you check under the bed for Lions? Do you worry that sometimes your car might change in to a hippopotamus? Do you suddenly stop mid-step just in case a T-Rex has come back from the dead? Do you check that your television hasn’t turned in to cheese? Or that water has suddenly developed the ability to talk? Have you prepared an escape plan for the possibility that one day the floor may actually be made of lava?

Or do you feel comfortable that on the basis that because these things have never happened before, they aren’t likely to happen any time soon? Or do you not learn from experience?


If clubs were in the top league purely on merit we wouldn’t have a salary cap (disadvantaging some clubs to benefit others) or a quota (massively advantages a heartland club with a thriving amateur game on its doorstep compared to an expansion club which is building one) If we get rid of these things, the first club to go pop probably wont be the one in a major city with a wealthy benefactor.

Phew! I thought I was the only one who checked under the bed for Lions!

I see smokey is still winning arguments by boring people into submission!!

Your contribution of course being a rich and interesting addition to the debate.

Good work Chomsky.

Regardless of whether or not the crowds present at the games themselves increase , Superleague is primarily a TV Show on sky sports.
At the moment it is a tv show with no plot, nobody really cares who finishes top of the league or bottom of it because it really counts for very little. Promotion and relegation creates interest in the game and actually gives some purpose to the regular season.

At the moment sky seem to have to rely on stevo and eddy constantly reminding people what a "great product" the game is. I don't hear the same things being said in other sports.

The competition itself should be the great product but unfortunately it is little more than a roadshow of exhibition games.