Must have missed how rugby league crowds rivalled those of football pre-1992. We've long been second fiddle along the M62 corridor, as every other sport is in this country! By expanding, or trying to, we increase the potential numbers coming through the gates and watching on TV.

Watch the crowds at Hull City tumble when they are relegated, same for Wigan. Want evidence - look at Bradford City!

Can expansion work? Yes. Does it always work? No. Has the way the Crusaders have gone so far been perfect? Not at all, but how long is it since this founder member club of the Northern Rugby Football Union lurched from one financial crisis to another? And we are far from the only one!

I have watched RL for 40 years name me one club where so called expansion as worked barr Catalan (RL heartland)
As for Bradford City average gate of 11400 this season 12700 last not bad for a 4th division side

rubber man hit the nail on the head

Whitehaven (Formed 194icon_cool.gif?



Fair enough, you don't think it'll work, so don't you think we should even try expand and get more people interested in rugby league? All sports other than football have to do that - from union, to basketball, ice hockey and gridiron - to get more media attention and more sponsorship money.

What you really can't judge is one club over a 3-5 year period. You have to go at it long-term, in terms of building up a fanbase and growing your own players - as Quins are just doing now after nearly 30 years of trying to establish roots.

If clubs in the heartland spend beyond their means, fail to attract new support, spend too much on even lower rate Aussies than we have in the Super League, why should they get more help?

No-one can criticise Crusaders' recruitment policy when we brought Winterstein over to this country at the expense of giving our own young talent the chance, can they?

If the South of France is a Rugby League heartland and its a European Superleague then it should follow that Toulouse, Carcassonne, Lyon and Villeneuve have just as much right to lay claim to a Superleague place as Widnes, Leigh, Halifax and Wakefield do. Far too often I hear the "but Catalans are in a Rugby League heartland" excuse trotted out only for the same person to refuse to acknowledge that clubs in the south of France have as much right to Superleague as English heartland teams. I'm happy to accept the argument that Catalans are in a Rugby League heartland, it forms the basis of my argument as to why Toulouse should be in Superleague come 2012.

I don't know why you have lumped Wakefield into your list of non SL clubs other than it fits into the current mindset on these boards re anti Wakefield stance.

I would agree though that expansion might work best if we admit more French clubs and then work on closing the geographical gap between southern France and the M62.

im all for closing the gap between us and southern france, but only if we go there, this climate is far too cold for me!

how many posters on here would vote for expansion if wakefield were the club to step down to the championship to allow a 'new' club to join SL ?

actually lets look at the facts, there isnt enough money in the game to support the clubs we have without bail outs and suger daddy's, the reported hull kr situation, one story i heard over xmas about us i didnt like the sound of much either etc etc
expansionism only will work if it brings more cash and that means more home and away fans, les cats works cos its a once a year beano for the fans we all love, would as many do it twice, i doubt it, les cats however does not work when they play away, so its a one sided gain.
The facts are wee need to get the fans in both home and travelling for the whole setup to work, otherwise we get th rugby as a sideshow to whichever x factor clown is popular that week to cover the gaps, so in reality the only option is widnes to expand the cash, not even sure a cumbrian club could bring the same impact,hate to say it though but i thin expansion is a bit ambitious at present, survival of the current set-up will be hard enough, can see less clubs rather than more.

Do you not think it should be the home club's responsibility to attract a fan base without relying on away support? How do you think football clubs survive in this country with just a handful of away fans at every game? Absolutely ridiculous argument.

in the premiership...one word, sky!
outside the premiership either sky/ benefactor or they dont in the majority of cases!

think your is by far the more naive argument try looking at some football club accounts, if you get stuck with the big numbers come back and ill explain them to you!

I have a good idea for developing the game. The team who finishes bottom gets relegated. The top team from the next league down gets promoted.

Just an idea though.

When the divisions in which promotion and relegation takes place are fully professional then it's an excellent idea. Perhaps this will happen in the long term but many clubs are financially unstable as it is without the disruption of alternating between full time and part time status. This system has only been in place for one year, lets give it time.

I can't I'm afraid. Sport is based on winning and losing, and sides should be judged on this as opposed to the ground/business plan. By getting promoted, crowds will auomatically increase by playing the top sides and generating cash for a new stadium in the process. Look at any sport, clubs have to become succesesful before they move to flash new grounds. Taking away promotion just means to lower clubs have nothing to play for, and who wants to watch a game where there is no winner at the end of it all? In my opinion more lower clubs will go bust because the fans will get bored of watching teams play for nine months with no chance of promotion at the end of it.

Rant over!!!!

Whilst Sport in the UK is used to a promotion and relegation scenario it doesn't mean that is the correct option. The league's need to be able to support such a set up, so that firstly the club promoted can compete without having to overspend and secondly the relegated side can retain most of their current squad without a financial burden.

Unfortunately it seems, there is such a gulf between Superleague and Championship in terms of income that promotion/relegation doesn't seem a viable option. Unless, we continue with the same sides yoyoing between the leagues, with massive overhaul's of their squads or another teams spends above it's means which i don't believe helps anyone.

That said, Franchising hasn't exactely been the saviour many expected. But it must be said it's still at a relatively early stage. What we must do is support the sides outside of Superleague and consolidate what we have currently before expanding in the long term.

That's only my view though

If we don't get the licence next time round, we won't ever be back in my opinion. And with the recent on field 'success' we have had, I don't think thats fair. I can see Rugby League being just one division in the future.

good post!

there will always be the lower leagues how good will depend on them, but like TTD says we should support the lower league teams in some way,
I believe in the next few years the championship teams will reap benefits from the players not reaching super league status teams but having to move backwards because of the reduction in age limits

Good luck to him - good servant for us and nice guy...

yes and just out of interest how long does it take to educate pork, not being funny just making a point

Toulouse would fail it is a very strong RU area

for me it should be 2 divisions with 2 up and 2 down the clubs should be semi pro because the game can not support full time pros and before anybody calls me an idiot the evidence is there for all of us to see
SL clubs are now recording record losers all Barr 2-3 clubs are leaking money it is only a matter of time before we start to lose RL clubs forever and not just the National league teams, unless we address the situation
RL is not a national sport it never will be RU is football is it is time for folk to wake up and smell the coffee we are a little regional sport with a bloody good product before we go throwing money away in South Wales the North East South or bloody France, We should be making sure we do not lose the Dewsbury’s Keighley’s Wakefield’s and Widnes etc
If I was a Widnes fan I would be so Pd off with the whole situation it is a bloody disgrace ref the Crusaders some body at RL/SL HQ should be sacked for this bloody disaster RL in South Wales was always and always will be a dead duck as it will be at Pro level in London
So where will the lunatics try next Leicester, Bristol, and Birmingham Etc

Stop trying to sugar coat it and say it how it is man.

Can't for the life of me see the Crusaders lasting very long even with help/funding from the RFL and in the meantime clubs like the Cougars and Hornets will sadly go under. maybe thats just survival of the fittest but it would be a sad day for rugby league.

Pepignan is a strong RU area but it didn't stop Catalans building a better ground and getting bigger crowds than Wakey within a few years did it?

Most sports clubs are losing money. The combined debt of the Guinness Premiership clubs would probably be enough to bankrupt all the Superleague clubs, all the Championship clubs and the RFL combined. Clubs like Newcastle, Sale and Saracens are pouring millions upon millions into a black hole with little hope of recouping any money. Likewise Premier League clubs are drowning in a sea of debt. Manchester United's debt alone would bankrupt the RFU. Its not just RL, most sports clubs are in debt.

So your solution to the problem is to capitulate, surrender and go back to being the sporting equivalent of curling? I can guarantee that most clubs attendances would halve over night. It was money coming into the game during the professional era that has allowed many clubs fan bases to grow. Try pulling off bullmania with a few grand, impossible. Where will clubs get the money from to entice the local populace to come watch them? They are only going to end up on the losing side with hungry professional Union and Football clubs pinching their fans. In an era where razzmatazz and media exposure is everything making a retrograde step is just asking to be killed off.

Enjoy your semi-professional standing around in a tin shed with two men and a dog future because if it happens Leeds Carnegie will have stolen all your fans within a generation.

you started early!

It is also the heartland of French Rugby League, so given the attraction for players to play against the top UK sides on a regular basis and the crowds appetite to watch the top UK sides every fortnight, plus there is no other Super League side within 500 miles of them it isn't surprising they are pulling in the crowds.