Don't think my comments were anything like go out and enjoy yourself son

But the question remains; I agree that a coach has to motivate his players - as does anyone with a leadership role - but isn't there more to it than that?

A lot of it is if your face fits as with any job.

It worked for John Harbin, who undoubtably has brought through our best bunch in the last 30 years. Speak to anyone who was there at the time and they will tell you his RL knowledge was average at best, but he got the very best out of everyone.
He also gave youngsters a chance and stuck with them. Admittedly this wasnt always through choice, but im sure the way this was done has stood the likes of Westwood & Ellis in good stead

Boy can I relate to that.

When I returned from living in Oz after six years as a 13 year old I wanted to carry on my RL. I'd done ok in the open, friendly and approachable world of Aussie junior RL. I don't think i'd ever have made the star side or bee an Australian Schoolboy International but I was competent as FB playing for Bathurst Panthers (or Railways as they were then known).

Schoolboy RL at my new school seemed a bit hit and miss but then school for me was a bit hit and miss.

I eventually went down to club (won't name it) to see what was on offer. Now my memory is very vague as to the set up at the time but there was some sort of youth set up (this was 1976). The coach at the time when I asked if I could have a trial said gruffly "if you want" and that was the last time he looked directly at me. Maybe he didn't like me or it was the fact I was from Sandal not the "estate" as he called it, or maybe he was just having a bad day.

He never watched me once. When we played touch and pass he didn't put me on a team I just tagged along. I won the sprint challenge by some way which he didn't acknowledge and somehow seemed to suggest his fave player and probable relative was the fastest player he'd ever seen and it went on. I was ostracised by him and as you would expect his "team". I never stood a chance. A year later I went down with an estate lad I'd become friends with and trained for a few weeks and because of my new connection I was better treated especially by the lads but I'd lost the taste for it by then and I still reckon I'd have only got a game if there had only been 12 "estate" lads left with two legs.

I'm not saying Mopsey is that kind of coach but that attitude of nepotism though much diminished still exists in a fair few clubs. I'm sure there are Aussie clubs and coaches like that but they are a small minority with most clubs being egalitarian - we have much to learn.

Ellis and Westwood were exposed to regular SL rugby at a young age. I'm sure they learnt and developed far more than they would've had their involvement been sporadic whilst in their late teens/early 20's. It's kind of what I was getting at before.

I think it's also fair to say both those players were exceptional mature for their age especially Ellis which IMHO is the main reason they both got blooded early.

Bathurst!!!

No wonder you didn't settle...


To be fair though I was born and brought up on an 'estate'... I played league for the local pub teams, I had mates who went on to bigger and better things with the pro leagues, I alway thought of league as 'my game'. By the time I came to AUS... I was doing ok... I came here for a good job, and when he boys started playing with the local leagues club, I was treated as a rich guy with privileged kids... A concept I really struggled with!

Both boys left that club and are now successful junior rowers...

I adapted

Fair point.

Early developers have a massive advantage in all sports and especially Rugby (of both codes)
There are cliques at every club and it is only when the coaches are impartial that people get a fair crack of the whip.
But, that's life and sometimes you just have to accept these things.
Equally, it's not always the most talented kids that become the "best" players, all sorts of other attributes make great players.

Fair enough but a bit easier to deal with as a grown man than as an impressionable teenager who needed a little bit of support - not much just a little - I did adapt anyway, I played RU



What's wrong with Bathurst, are you some drongo from Orange or Cowra

My recollection is hazy but I remember Ellis being described as not the best player of the group but he had the best attitude which ultimately paved the way to be the most successful.

Correct.

Again I think the Aussies have the edge on us here as well. I remember my coach being very interested in my dad who was a huge (in a good way) man - I think this is why he persisted with me even though I was smallish for my age. He saw that what skills I had would probably/hopefully one day be matched to an athletic frame. I think British junior coaches continually over value big strong young players over more skill full ones because at that age those players often totally dominate games - something they the utterly fail to do as adults with the odd exception.

This for me explains the lack of enough clever players in the English game. Might be wrong.

This is a proper conundrum, at Cas we are lucky to have Huby, Shenton, Clarke, Milner who could've (and in one case have) played at "bigger" clubs over their careers but have stayed darn't lane.

I suppose there are loads of factors:

Money offered
Development/Coaching
First team game time
Locallity
Perks/T's and C's of contracts
Job security
Commitment (i.e. whether an 18 year old wants to play rugby or go into another career)

With your crop of youngsters 2/3 years ago, I could only imagine that, when the club were struggling financially and in admin, the club couldn't afford to keep them on, or they thought it prudent to move on and have a more secure future. Players may be happy to take a pay-cut or a decrease in potential game time if the club they are at is financially stable.

Or it may just boil down to the fact that smaller club's players are creamed by the bigger clubs. Most recent example for us was Greg Eden

I believe there are certain junior comps/leagues in Oz where teams are picked on weight/height as opposed to DOB. This results in improved skills as just sending in the big lad does not have the same effect.

Couldn't agree more. I know a lot of my mates had scholarships with football teams as 13/14 year olds and got released becasue they were "too small". Considering I was fairly small at 13 and am now 6ft1, I just can't understand the logic, Surely you want your talented teenagers before big ones that don't have the skill sets...

Not sure your examples are all that well chosen.

Nobody has or ever will want Huby - only Cas fans rate him.

Shenton came back because he was found out as yet another over hyped Cas product. He is back at the level he belongs.

Milner simply isn't very good.

As for Clark both you and I know he will be off sooner rather than later.

Didn't Eden start at Wakefield????

Your point about Junior coaches is a massive part of it Vasty. At a young age, it can make or break a young kid, no matter what the skill or potential.

I'd also agree about the comparison with Aussies in terms of attitude to size over skill. The general attitude to fitness and strength is different anyway so the small kid in Oz is not quite the same as the small pale computer nerd you can get in UK.

I would controvertially add to your comment about going to RU. Not in all cases but in my experience the RU youth set up is better at bringing kids through with good community type set up. That might be a money thing and it might be something to do with the game as you can more easily carry less able players in RU in my opinion so less stress about it.
It's not that they are better in all aspects but we could learn from both Oz and RU on these things.

we do have a fondness for Huby but that's only natural considering he's been at the club 11 years, and a few years ago he was playing out of his skin. He's a decent player who would do a job in the lower echelons of SL.

Shenton only really got found out playing for England which I agree he was not good enough. I don't think he did TOO badly for Saints else they'd have released him (his contract wasn't renewed which is fair enough i guess)

Milner isn't Clark, true dat.

Clark has been going for 3 years and is still here so we must be doing our utmost to keep him (which wa smy point) but he's certain to leave to bigger and better things, we've kept him up to now so credit to whoever's done that

And I aren't overly sure about Eden's very early career, he was at cas at 16/17 though

I don't agree about Shenton. He had a major injury/health scare that knocked him back in my opinion. I think he was international class without being the best international.

Huby I'm thinking will only have half his salary counting on salary cap now (10 year rule?). Of course that only helps those who are paying up to the cap.

Hmm... IMO I don't think he has a good enough passing game to be what you'd call a world class centre, though I maintain he didn't flop at saints cause when fit he played every week for 2 years.

Huby yeah, he will only have 50% against the cap. This, coupled on his playing ability 2 years ago when Stevo was in the league express saying he should play for England (I disagreed BTW) would suggest it's false to say "nobody ever has wanted or will ever want Huby in their team".

I purely think that's a snipe from someone who's seen him play twice a year for a rival club, more than an infomred judgment.

I do differenciate between international class and world class though. It's semantics of course but imho he is worthy of a place in an international team, without ever beingrated above some of the other internationals he plays against.
Small difference i know but that's where I put Shenton. He's better than most/many in Super League.

I'll accept that some Cas players are often over-hyped by Cas fans, but isn't that what fans do? On the flip side opposition fans under-hype players - hence your dislike and refusal to applaud anything Cas related.
I personally don't see or hear anyone stating Milner is international quality, just another SL standard player coming off the conveyor belt, along with the likes of Jordy Thompson, joe westerman, daz clark, Liam Watts, greg Eden, Joe Arundel, Oliver Holmes, James Clare & Richie Owen (awaits predictable and probably justified put down of Richie!) not to mention the the others from the town and surrounding area that were picked up as juniors by other "bigger" clubs.
To suggest that no-one wants/ wanted Huby is just plain wrong as saints made an offer the first time we were relegated for both shenny and huby (which both players turned down) and its being reported currently that Paul Anderson is an admirer of huby's.

The problem for Huby is he doesn't look the part physically.
When I've watched him he seems to be as fit and as skillful as any other but I'm certain he is judged partly on his shape.
He is one that the Cas fans pick out more often than not and as they watch him regularly I'd imagine they are the best judge.
Not being an international is not the same as not being the best at a club or that other clubs wouldn't want him.

Also, am I alone in thinking that although Clarke is flashy and clearly has skills, if I had to choose I'd keep Milner. I like the way he plays and I think manages the team better.

Clarke is the real deal of the two, he runs fast and hard, makes good decisions and his distribution is excellent.

Milner is more of a Cunningham whereas Clarke is a Roby, if you will...

Huby has got a very... lets say, natural build, He occasionally plays 80 minutes for us though which is invaluable, so (forgive me for making this comparison) but a club like ours woud take that over a Paleaasina, Poore, Morley etc who plays 25 minutes a game.

Then again, Sam Thaiday isn't perfectly ripped in shape but he's a relatively decent laker.....