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| Quote ="jacques"As someone already posted ,expand through Hemel and Scholars.
The correct way.
From the bottom tiers upwards.
Must have posted similar hundreds of times.'"
This is something that has never happened in the history of our game, ever. Up until the addition of the new clubs into C1, only one club in a century had been able to make the jump from amateur to semi-pro, The London Skolars. No club has ever been able to make the leap from amateur to semi-pro to fully pro in the entire history of our game. Asking an area to start at the very bottom and work their way to the top is asking them to give up on ever being at the top.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"This is something that has never happened in the history of our game, ever. Up until the addition of the new clubs into C1, only one club in a century had been able to make the jump from amateur to semi-pro, The London Skolars. No club has ever been able to make the leap from amateur to semi-pro to fully pro in the entire history of our game. Asking an area to start at the very bottom and work their way to the top is asking them to give up on ever being at the top.'"
Just because something hasn't happened previously doesn't stop it ever happening.
Why can't a club like London Skolars go on to reach the top if the development is allowed to continue and they get the most important addition to any RL Club - a wealthy benefactor.
Why is that worse than letting London continue to make the sport look a laughing stock playing games in front of empty stadiums? Guaranteeing them a presence in the top flight and forcing a "Heartlands" club to drop out because of that is surely worse (although obviously not to you as it wouldn't be your club that got the boot).
The top flight should contain the overall strongest and most viable teams - that is not London!! and never will be!
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| I don't think the expansion darn sarf has been a failure at all. It's just not been successful at the top end.
There are are many amateur clubs playing that were not before. Building slowly is imho a good thing.
And in terms of Broncos, I remember Terry O'Connor saying he thought Broncos could survive at a level down as the same fans would probably support them.
Although I don'ta gree much with him he makes a good point. If they ahve a small number of die hard fans, why woudn't they watch when they play Featherstone. It's not like Wigan and Leeds are dragging more in at the Stoop (or where ever they play.
I'd let the drop a level and fund the junior development rather than prop them up in Super league.
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| Quote ="Fordy"Just because something hasn't happened previously doesn't stop it ever happening.
Why can't a club like London Skolars go on to reach the top if the development is allowed to continue and they get the most important addition to any RL Club - a wealthy benefactor.
Why is that worse than letting London continue to make the sport look a laughing stock playing games in front of empty stadiums? Guaranteeing them a presence in the top flight and forcing a "Heartlands" club to drop out because of that is surely worse (although obviously not to you as it wouldn't be your club that got the boot).
The top flight should contain the overall strongest and most viable teams - that is not London!! and never will be!'"
When have London been guaranteed a position and which heartland team have been kicked out for them? London have a wealthy benefactor. They didn’t get him by being an amateur side.
If something has never happened before, it is only sensible to assume it isn’t likely to happen, A turtle hasn’t ever built a piano, so we assume it quite unlikely that a turtle will build a piano. No club has ever gone from amateur to semi-pro to pro, it is only sensible that we assume it is pretty unlikely that they will do so.
There are inherent advantages to being a heartland club, advantages Wakefield get, like the fact that they can pick up players from other heartland sides, how many players Leeds developed are playing for Wakefield right now? How many over the past ten years? It is easier for Wakefield to do that than it is for London or any expansion side. Which are Wakefield’s best attended games? Is it the teams on their doorstep or the ones miles away? Wakefield as a club also over a hundred years old, a new club by definition isn’t. If we don’t help expansion clubs, and give them advantages to redress the balance we will condemn them to always being lesser clubs. We will entrench the current status quo and the game will strangle its own growth.
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| Quote ="PopTart"I don't think the expansion darn sarf has been a failure at all. It's just not been successful at the top end.
There are are many amateur clubs playing that were not before. Building slowly is imho a good thing.
And in terms of Broncos, I remember Terry O'Connor saying he thought Broncos could survive at a level down as the same fans would probably support them.
Although I don'ta gree much with him he makes a good point. If they ahve a small number of die hard fans, why woudn't they watch when they play Featherstone. It's not like Wigan and Leeds are dragging more in at the Stoop (or where ever they play.
I'd let the drop a level and fund the junior development rather than prop them up in Super league.'"
I agree to a point. My position would be that London fans are more Rugby League fans than London Bronco’s fans. They are people who love to watch our game and whose outlet for that is currently the Bronco’s and yes, that would mean largely they would watch the Bronco’s in whatever division they play because realistically that is their only option. However I don’t think the game would grow in London off the back of those 1.5k or so diehard fans. It would make growth nigh on impossible. I have always said the SL should have a London representative, I have no problem if it isn’t the current London representation.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"To attract significant investment/sponsorship and to be something more than a local game it's "expand or die" and none of us want the sport to die.'"
You maybe right on a fully professional basis but should still survive if it went back to semi-pro and amature level,the game seemed to do ok before super duper league and the input of sky tv.Personally if the top tear of rugby league was at an amature level I would still watch Wakefield play with a team full of local lads,so let's look after what we've got.
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| Quote ="Heathviewcat"You maybe right on a fully professional basis but should still survive if it went back to semi-pro and amature level,the game seemed to do ok before super duper league and the input of sky tv.Personally if the top tear of rugby league was at an amature level I would still watch Wakefield play with a team full of local lads,so let's look after what we've got.'"
Like you, I too would watch Wakefield in whichever competition that they were involved in but, there is a bigger picture here, a much bigger picture.
Whether we like it or not, in order to be able to pay its participants a reasonable income, top level professional sport needs a substantial level of funding, usually TV money, PLUS significant income from other areas ie. local sponsorship, merchandise etc
Unless the game can attract the TV income, we are back to an amateur or semi pro sport and whilst this is still a good watch, it's a totally different beast to the sport that we presently have.
If we wish to sustain the sport at its current level or, preferably improve things, then we have to attract income from the TV companies and if we dilute the sport ie retreating into the heartlands (without the French club(s) and London)
will Sky, or whoever else, really want to pay the same amount of sponsorship for a small northern based game that is only played in Yorkshire and Lancashire (plus Cumbria) or, should we make the sport a more attractive option and then ensure that we can ask for a greater level of funding which in time will allow the game to expand and prosper.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"When have London been guaranteed a position and which heartland team have been kicked out for them? London have a wealthy benefactor. They didn’t get him by being an amateur side.
If something has never happened before, it is only sensible to assume it isn’t likely to happen, A turtle hasn’t ever built a piano, so we assume it quite unlikely that a turtle will build a piano. No club has ever gone from amateur to semi-pro to pro, it is only sensible that we assume it is pretty unlikely that they will do so.'"
Smokey if this were true the human race would still be single cells slithering around in the mud. I'm no turtle and i'm sure I could build a pianp given time, support, advice, the right tools etc. Surely Hemel Stags a a good example of what can happen - first game as an amateur club in 1981 which they lost 38 - 0 and then slow but sure progress, one step at a time, to where they are now. I don't know what their objectives are but I would imagine that they have no intention of just being a Ch1 for the rest of time. Parachuting teams in to SL just doesn't seem to work but patient and painstaking commitment and hard work a la Stags and Skolars (and hopefully Oxford) may do. The downside is that it takes a long time - 32 years to get to Ch1- but it can be done with the right support.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"=#FF0000When have London been guaranteed a position and which heartland team have been kicked out for them? London have a wealthy benefactor. They didn’t get him by being an amateur side.
=#FF0000Be honest - if London had been based elsewhere would they have got a franchise? How many of the conditions did they meet (aside from the ridiculous one made up to give them and Catalans an extra point because they were more than 30 miles from someone else)
=#00BF40If something has never happened before, it is only sensible to assume it isn’t likely to happen, A turtle hasn’t ever built a piano, so we assume it quite unlikely that a turtle will build a piano. No club has ever gone from amateur to semi-pro to pro, it is only sensible that we assume it is pretty unlikely that they will do so.
=#00BF40Before 1917 nobody had ever split the atom - did that stop Ernest Rutherford doing it??
Before 1961 nobody had ever sent a man into space - did Russia and Yuri Gagarin say "ooh nobody has done this before therefore it can't be done" ?
Your statement has to be amongst the most ridiculous I've ever heard
There are inherent advantages to being a heartland club, advantages Wakefield get, like the fact that they can pick up players from other heartland sides, how many players Leeds developed are playing for Wakefield right now? How many over the past ten years? It is easier for Wakefield to do that than it is for London or any expansion side. Which are Wakefield’s best attended games? Is it the teams on their doorstep or the ones miles away? Wakefield as a club also over a hundred years old, a new club by definition isn’t. If we don’t help expansion clubs, and give them advantages to redress the balance we will condemn them to always being lesser clubs. We will entrench the current status quo and the game will strangle its own growth.'"
I never suggested the game should not have support outside the established areas - but that should not be guaranteed at the top level. All teams should work their way up and prove themselves to be worthy of a place. I'm not against expanding but it should be done by building outwards from where the game is already strong - expanding through South Yorkshire and into the Midlands or up to the North East etc. Build out from the strongest base - don't just stick teams in an area where they have no other clubs around them, and no interest.
Which games are generally the best supported games? - Derby matches or matches against a team with which you have no real rivalry?
Expansion should be about giving the new teams the best chance of surviving and then building - that will never be done by just plonking a team in Cornwall or East Anglia or London.
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| Sometimes you forget how blinkered we can be. RL in only the M62 corridor is a non starter, or the perfect solution to decimate the game.
A business has to develop and RL is a business. We have Hemel, Oxford and Gloucester this time from amateur to semi pro and hopefully Coventry next time. This is great progress and at the right entry level.
Fulham/Crusaders/ Broncos/Harlequins/ Broncos made a fatal error. They moved to Twickenham and into the Stoop across the road. The Stoop has been a disaster for the game. How much more g and t can you get. It has zero chance of progression with the contempt they will still hold against us. London has to be in a more practical location, but where is it?
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Smokey if this were true the human race would still be single cells slithering around in the mud. I'm no turtle and i'm sure I could build a pianp given time, support, advice, the right tools etc. Surely Hemel Stags a a good example of what can happen - first game as an amateur club in 1981 which they lost 38 - 0 and then slow but sure progress, one step at a time, to where they are now. I don't know what their objectives are but I would imagine that they have no intention of just being a Ch1 for the rest of time. Parachuting teams in to SL just doesn't seem to work but patient and painstaking commitment and hard work a la Stags and Skolars (and hopefully Oxford) may do. The downside is that it takes a long time - 32 years to get to Ch1- but it can be done with the right support.'"
32 years is a very very long time for us to be waiting. Besides, I would ask in what way are Hemel a better club than the Broncos? Better youth development? Better visibility? Better attendances? Better on the field? Hemel have taken a third of a century to become a C1 club for so far half a season, that isn’t an argument in favour of the slow and steady progress. Whilst you may say that parachuting a club in to SL doesn’t work, the facts are there is an SL club in London, one which has experienced more success in the SL era than most heartland clubs have, one which is finished 2nd in SL and has appeared in a challenge cup final. There isn’t one in Hemel or Oxford. If our aim is to have a wider geographical spread in the top fight history shows that parachuting clubs in has given us 4 expansion clubs in the top flight in 15 years, building from the grass-roots up has given us 0 in 117 years .
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| Quote ="Fordy"I never suggested the game should not have support outside the established areas - but that should not be guaranteed at the top level. All teams should work their way up and prove themselves to be worthy of a place.'"
And what I am saying is that asking an expansion club to do that is asking them to work against so many inherent disadvantages that it is telling them not to bother. Our game, in every single way, is set up for the benefit of the heartlands. In some ways that is deliberate, in some ways unavoidable and in some ways an unintended consequence.
Quote I'm not against expanding but it should be done by building outwards from where the game is already strong - expanding through South Yorkshire and into the Midlands or up to the North East etc. Build out from the strongest base - don't just stick teams in an area where they have no other clubs around them, and no interest.
Which games are generally the best supported games? - Derby matches or matches against a team with which you have no real rivalry?
Expansion should be about giving the new teams the best chance of surviving and then building - that will never be done by just plonking a team in Cornwall or East Anglia or London.'" We don’t have that choice. The RFL don’t fund London, David Hughes does. David Hughes wants to fund a team in London, he doesn’t want to fund one in Sheffield or Newcastle, or Nottingham. If we find a David Hughes, or Bernard Gausch in Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham then great, if we don’t then we cant set up a team in Sheffield, or Newcastle, or Nottingham and get them to SL level. There isnt a deliberate choice to ignore these areas, there just isnt the opportunity right now for them.
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| Before we decide the make up of Super League and the lower divisions, we need to be clear on what we want from the game:
A strong international programme (including full tours) ?
Expansion of the game in the UK (and beyond) ?
Promotion and relegation to the top flight ?
Then set a plan and work to clear objectives.
In RL recent history we have had 14 clubs, cut to 12 and then back to 14, we've had promotion and relegation (including Castleford going down from 2nd bottom to protect Catalan)
There were promises of promotion for "qualifying" clubs, not granted, plus 4 clubs in administration and all of this within a small time frame.
There needs to be clear direction from the RFL, supported by the professional clubs with the prime objective being, to take the sport forward.
Finally, regarding clubs going into administration, for the sake of the game, this should probably mean automatic relegation.
There is a regular demand for promotion and relegation to the top flight. However, currently there are only 2 or 3 clubs who could possibly succeed in the top flight (Featherstone, Sheffield and Halifax) and of these, only Halifax could generate supporter numbers to sustain their club in SL (although it's worth remembering that their crowds were shocking last time they had the opportunity).
Also, we have 2 clubs currently who attract championship size crowds and 2 clubs operating out of outdated stadia.
Is it time for the game to insist that certain criteria are met, ie stadium criteria, minimum supporter numbers etc and then pull up the drawbridge or, should we go the other way and bring back annual promotion and relegation and is 14 clubs the right number for SL or should we expand or reduce the top division ?
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| As bizarre as it is, I quite like the two 12's and the three 8's, subject to the obvious difficulties being ironed out. It enables the top eight clubs to have their high intensity matches whilst opening the door to the also rans. Trinity are hardly likely to win the GF but they're more than capable of winning the secondary competition should they miss the cut in the first 11 rounds. I would've thought London would fall into the same category.
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| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"As bizarre as it is, I quite like the two 12's and the three 8's, subject to the obvious difficulties being ironed out. It enables the top eight clubs to have their high intensity matches whilst opening the door to the also rans. Trinity are hardly likely to win the GF but they're more than capable of winning the secondary competition should they miss the cut in the first 11 rounds. I would've thought London would fall into the same category.'"
Although you may be right, it's like championship rugby re-branded and winning the 2nd tier comp is like a chocolate medal wrapped in foil.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Although you may be right, it's like championship rugby re-branded and winning the 2nd tier comp is like a chocolate medal wrapped in foil.'"
Did you not enjoy winning the Division one flower pot and promotion to SL?
I actually like the idea of 2x12/3x8, but with the proviso that the funding of all 24 clubs involved would have to be brought closer together somehow. What it gives back is hope. Newport County have just got back into the soccer league and although no-one in their right mind would suggest that they'll ever win the premiership, the opportunity is there if they are good enough on field, which gives the supporters hope, however slim the chances.
What would be the minimum funding needed to run a full-time squad of say 25 players. Not one capable of beating Wigan, just to have full-time players with the associated auxiliary costs? Is RL big enough to support at minimum 24 full-time teams?
I think it has fewer flaws than the current system. Franchising can only work if you have more bidders meeting the minimum standard than you have places available. Can you imagine KFC awarding franchises to places that have no access road or no toilets or parking facilities? It can't be used to slowly improve towards minimum standards whilst struggling to prop up a failing business.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"32 years is a very very long time for us to be waiting. Besides, I would ask in what way are Hemel a better club than the Broncos? Better youth development? Better visibility? Better attendances? Better on the field? Hemel have taken a third of a century to become a C1 club for so far half a season, that isn’t an argument in favour of the slow and steady progress. Whilst you may say that parachuting a club in to SL doesn’t work, the facts are there is an SL club in London, one which has experienced more success in the SL era than most heartland clubs have, one which is finished 2nd in SL and has appeared in a challenge cup final. There isn’t one in Hemel or Oxford. If our aim is to have a wider geographical spread in the top fight history shows that parachuting clubs in has given us 4 expansion clubs in the top flight in 15 years, building from the grass-roots up has given us 0 in 117 years .'"
Hang on - where are these 4 expansion clubs in the top flight??? When I last looked there was one in SL and that club seems to be dying on its ar5e. Wrencat's right - we need to know where RL is going, a development plan - and if geographical expansion is a part of that there should be facility for both parachuting and development from the grassroots. But both have to be supported, nurtured, encouraged.
I agree that 32 years is too long but;
a) - there has to be a transparent pathway to the elite level for all clubs that aspire to it and
b) - if the plan for fledgling clubs had been in place in the 80s with appropriate support, resources, expectations etc, clubs like Hemel could, just possibly, be there or thereabouts now.
How is Hemel better than London? Well the truth is that neither is better than the other but Hemel is growing organically, London seems to going nowhere fast. Both need supporting.
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Wrencat's right - we need to know where RL is going, a development plan - and if geographical expansion is a part of that there should be facility for both parachuting and development from the grassroots. But both have to be supported, nurtured, encouraged.'"
Couldn't agree more - when designing large scale change, it's important to begin with the end in mind, otherwise it's unfocused and chaotic and people don't buy in.
The problem I have with the RFL is that they appear to do half a job - I can't say for certain if they know what they want to achieve with this restructure but if they do, they haven't told us, apart from some vague management speak about vibrancy and suchlike.
If they want to clear the decks to satisfy the wealthy club-owners - then say so; if it's something else - then say that instead. Either way, tell us what the aim is!
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| Quote ="bren2k"Couldn't agree more - when designing large scale change, it's important to begin with the end in mind, otherwise it's unfocused and chaotic and people don't buy in.
The problem I have with the RFL is that they appear to do half a job - I can't say for certain if they know what they want to achieve with this restructure but if they do, they haven't told us, apart from some vague management speak about vibrancy and suchlike.
If they want to clear the decks to satisfy the wealthy club-owners - then say so; if it's something else - then say that instead. Either way, tell us what the aim is!'"
Bren, you can have big Nige's job for me, i'll get your nomination in tonight's post.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Bren, you can have big Nige's job for me, i'll get your nomination in tonight's post.'"
Think of the cost-saving - I eat a third of what he does and I only need a small chair!
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Hang on - where are these 4 expansion clubs in the top flight??? When I last looked there was one in SL and that club seems to be dying on its ar5e. Wrencat's right - we need to know where RL is going, a development plan - and if geographical expansion is a part of that there should be facility for both parachuting and development from the grassroots. But both have to be supported, nurtured, encouraged.
I agree that 32 years is too long but;
a) - there has to be a transparent pathway to the elite level for all clubs that aspire to it and
b) - if the plan for fledgling clubs had been in place in the 80s with appropriate support, resources, expectations etc, clubs like Hemel could, just possibly, be there or thereabouts now.
How is Hemel better than London? Well the truth is that neither is better than the other but Hemel is growing organically, London seems to going nowhere fast. Both need supporting.'"
There are 2 in there right now, Les Catalans ( a merged club which played in the French elite for a couple of years with the Guarantee of SL) and London. Previously Gateshead and Crusaders (you could also include PSG but they barely qualify as a club in anything but name, they were just a collection of players from other clubs). Im not saying that is a perfect record, im not even saying it is good. Simply that it is better than expecting clubs in expansion areas to build towards the top tier, we tried doing that for over a century, we had a 0% success rate.
There is no reason for us to assume that if Hemel had done what they did over the past few years back in the 1980’s they would be further on than they are now. We even saw clubs back in the 80’s try to go the organic route, like Kent Ivicta, Cardiff Blue Dragons, South Wales RLFC. They didn’t even make it to try.
The game has moved on from being able to see a small club challenge at the top and grow, even established heartland teams like Leigh, Fev ,Halifax simply can’t compete, even established SL heartland clubs like Cas are stuggling to keep pace. None of them can compete on a level playing field at the top table. The fact is, whether we like it or not, the most important thing to the success of a club whether they be an ambitious heartland side like Fev, an established SL side like Cas, or an expansion side like London or Sheffield, or even a prospective side like Newcastle or Nottingham is the same thing that kept Salford and Widnes alive and gave them even a little hope a rich man with deep pockets willing to invest. The hand to mouth existence which went before has gone at the very top. Leeds and Wigan and Wire and Saints and Hull etc aren’t scratching around for a tax bill, or a couple of grand here or there, the clubs who are struggle to compete. It doesn’t matter whether you are fev, fax, Toulouse, London or whoever your success and failure is based on money. You need it to compete and the game doesn’t have enough of it. So if David Hughes, Marwan Koukash, Andrew Glover, or some Dutch shipping magnate who wants a team in Amsterdam, wants to offer it to us we need a pretty good reason to turn it down.
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| Quote ="Poynton"London Broncos chief executive Gus Mackay in an article on the BBC Rugby League website seems to be arguing once again for London to be given special treatment. He argues that whatever option is chosen London Broncos must be in the top division . Frankly I am sick of double standards . I agree that it is better for the profile of Rugby League if there is a succesful London club but it must be ON MERIT and without any special favours such as extra overseas players. Lodon crowds have been pathetic this season and there doesn't seem to be any real appetite for League whether they have a suvccesful team on the field or not . Whatever new structure we have it must be based on clubs finding their own level based on performance on the field and genuine promotion and relegation .'"
the rules and regs are and im afraid will always be designed to cherry pick what in essence the RFL want as part of their Superduperlooper league. The clubs vote the bodies in who run red hall unfortunately there is a lot of back rubbing going on.
Super league for me as had its day, look at the crowds at the bigger clubs and the i don't care attitude from the sky team.
Bring back 2 up 2 down then you will see crowds at the lower teams grow .
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| Quote ="muttley cat"the rules and regs are and im afraid will always be designed to cherry pick what in essence the RFL want as part of their Superduperlooper league. The clubs vote the bodies in who run red hall unfortunately there is a lot of back rubbing going on.
Super league for me as had its day, look at the crowds at the bigger clubs and the i don't care attitude from the sky team.
Bring back 2 up 2 down then you will see crowds at the lower teams grow .'"
I don't agree with your analysis of the crowds Mutley.
Folk usually turn up if their club looks like it may be relegated but, then if they do go down, the crowd numbers plummet and the newly promoted club(s) always take a while to stoke up interest.
I think the million pound game was the exception and nothing like the norm.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Halifax's crowds were awful last time they were in the top flight.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"I don't agree with your analysis of the crowds Mutley.
Folk usually turn up if their club looks like it may be relegated but, then if they do go down, the crowd numbers plummet and the newly promoted club(s) always take a while to stoke up interest.
I think the million pound game was the exception and nothing like the norm.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Halifax's crowds were awful last time they were in the top flight.'"
Problem with halifax is they are a football town and hearing the crowds football is prominent
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| Quote ="djcool"Problem with halifax is they are a football town and hearing the crowds football is prominent'"
Can't remember Halifax Towns crowds outdoing their rugby league neighbours
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