Thank you... a voice of sense. It is a testament to Kear's ability that we got ONE win!!! I don't like being a Steve Kean out a like but I was and am depressed by Agar's appointment... he is a decent assistant but no leader

I wasn't there but there are many reasons for this and they've all been posted on here in one way or another. Crap coach, some players not giving their all, no promotion relegation = nowt to play for, guaranteed paycheck...etc etc. Dismal season on the pitch. We sit and hope for a planning verdict....Jesus what have we and the game of RL come to?

Agar as the WTW coach made a key mistake by not signing at least one other (if not two) genuine prop(s) and I wish I had ten pounds for every post match press conference where R.A. has talked about losing the ruck area and being rolled down the field I'd have a nice wedge of cash by now!

He should have ensured he signed at least Ewan Dowes & kept Korkidas (or someone with sufficient experience and size) to contribute signficiantly to the go forward that Wakefield lack. We have too many second rows and not enough genuine props. It sounds like we're now trying to plug the gap with signing an unknown french import Gout who is not proven Super League quality, why didn't we go for HKR Prop Scott Wheeldon who we were linked with in 2010?



Rugby is surely about winning the collision first and then having the ability to create & score?



He (or Elston?) has however made some good signings with Kirmond, Cockayne, Lauititi, Collis (when fit), Mathers and Aiton being the most notable. Think R.A. needs greater experience alongside him and that Webster does not provide that.

Yeah, I mean conceding 430 points in a 9 game perriod at the back end of last season (an average of 48 per game) including playing the other 2 of the bottom 3 teams was a real heroic effort.

Or how about getting panned by 60 against huddersfield on sky the year before and conceding 40 to Cas in the derby or even getting battered away at wigan on easter monday the year before?

Now I'm no massive fan of what Agar is doing, but Kear's time had come and getting rid in itself was the right decision. Lets not try and rewrite history. For years the old argument was for "Let kear build his own side and then judge him" - whats good for the goose and all that......

Wether his replacement is up to the job is another matter of course.

Oh the self justification of the sack Kear brigade - I love it. So absolutely no reason why we struggled last year other than Kear. Still fair do's to Agar he has a brand new team od super stars to gel, hold on a minute wasn't that what happened to Kear (minus the superstars of course)



So basically by your logic, it SACK AGAR

Ah the two extra props argument, are you still flogging that dead horse.

We've had many spankings under Kear don't worry about that. Even though the squad was thin with little quality last season some of his team selections and tactics made Agar look like an International coach.

Yes Kear may have cocked up some selections (Lee to HB), but at least he had a suitable bench. When we started the season with 3 fit props (Korki, King, Johnson) he put Spiers on the bench against Cas and Catalans because he knew we needed another forward. Agar, on the other hand, has a bench consisting of only one prop, a second row (if we're lucky) a hooker (two if we're not lucky) and a lackluster centre.

Beware of another bizarre bench selection against Wolves!

You reckon

I've was never part of the Kear out brigade, thought he did brilliantly while he was here but I though he'd taken the club as far as he could and was time for a a change but to say we were never a embarrassing roll over is jut plain wrong, you must have forgotten some of the games from 2010, where we had a better side imo than we have now and got proper turned over on a number of occasions, a lot worse than this year so far, 7 games of 40+ scores there was.

I was replying to a post suggesting we were never easy beats under Kear. This in my opinion is simply not true.

If Agar fails to deliver what I would consider a "reasonable" return in a reasonable amount of time with his own team (on and off the field) when taking into account all relevant known factors then yes, I would be of the opinion to sack Agar.

Unlike plenty of posters on here (you more than most) I have no particular axe to grind with either the old or new regime so am in a position to offer an unbiased opinion.

On a point of pedantry - Kear wasn't sacked; his contract came to an end and he wasn't offered a new one.

JK got forced out by Mopsey i tell thee.

Thought it was the other way round?

Its not a dead horse, its what everybody with a bit of rugby league knowledge can plainly see what WTW needs. Its also what the coach himself acknowledges in most post match press conferences with no go forward, being easily rolled down the field and constantly losing the collision.

Using Aiton at prop speaks volumes of the lack of real options that R.A. seems to have at his disposal and the reason why there is a suggestion that we are now trying to buy a prop Jerome Gout from Toulouse (if its true and not a wind up).

In the short term maybe give a recalled Spiers a go (at prop from the bench) against Warrington and play players in their natural position for a change (yes I know that sounds a bit controversial

).

Show me a SL team that wins matches with a weak front row.

If the coach acknowledges a lack of go forward, why did he play Aiton at prop? Like that will help anything!

I completely agree it was madness putting Aiton at prop (?!) and it contradicts what he's been saying over the last month or so, ever since the week after the Catalan game.

Correct. It's also what the coach acknowledged before the start of the season. Something he stated explicitly. We could do with another prop. The injury to Amor at the start of the season made this abundantly clear. The Johnson issue shouldn't confuse this. There may, and probably are completely different reasons for the non-selection last week.

Not totally correct.

But close.

If we have enough props, why are we having to play players out of position there and don't have enough on the bench either?
Surely if thats tactics then its time to get the effigy and the matches out of storage!!

We have 5 props yet all of them have probably only managed 1-2 good games. What we need is for them to perform consistently. We can't have it both ways where we say this team should be doing better than it is and then let them off the hook by saying we are light up front.

Yes clearly not the biggest or best pack but even so it's under performing in a big way. That's nothing to do with size etc it's to do with the players in question not doing the job as well as they could. In which case I can't see more props helping, as they will simply drop to the level already at the club if my experience is anything to go by.

No one is pretending we can match up to the bigger packs in SL but then you must be a fantasist if you thought we would this season. However there are teams that we are clearly struggling against and we shouldn't. Oddly we proved we can do it against Catalan, although I accept they were probably off par but all the same it as a good show from us.

It's a dead horse because it simply isn't going to be improved this season by signing new players - what's needed is for the well payed Props we have to prop consistently well - we won't win SL this season with them but it will make for a better season than so far. Clearly a Prop is first on the list for next season.

Forwards win games I utterly agree with you on that, but packs are created not bought - of all the elements of a team the Front Row is the hardest to get right IMHO - all other players can be made to look good by a dominant pack especially props - a pack actually has to be good especially the props. Sadly it's not all about size, it's about heart, teamwork and pride in themselves and each other - won't happen overnight or with rush signings. It's the one position where I'm willing to be patient.

That said the playing of Aiton and even Southern at prop I'm not sure I can explain so easily

In the context of what the club will do and what the fans want, almost everything is a dead horse by this assumption.
They have the money and grasp on what is achievable from a financial point of view, we just want to see a winning or at least enthusiastic/competitive side.
Our views are based on desire and pride and passion but these do not pay for players we cannot afford, and sadly we don't seem to have quite enough of them at the moment, and one thing is for certain, to turn our backs now will mean we wont have enough next year and the year after that...........
There does seem to be something of a puzzle going on at the minute and it does seem to focus around certain areas of our squad and the deployment thereof, so its definitely not a dead horse from the supporters (or many of them) point of view.
In reality as Vastman suggests it may be, but its not going to stop it from being re-examined week in week out as it is clearly an issue.

I would have to agree with Vasty, although I think we already have the basis of a really good pack; what we seem to be missing is a prop who is prepared to be a big 'orrible bully - all good packs have one and the effect they have on the players around them is palpable. A big hit, a line-busting run or a bit of biff lifts the rest of the team and inspires them to greater efforts.

We need our very own Mark O'Meley, David Ferriol or Fuifui Moimoi - that player could emerge from our current crop or more likely, will be bought in next season.

We have not got those type of forwards in our squad unfortunately.

I realise that it will have to wait until next season till we get at least one other genuine prop not converting second rows in desperation such as Southern. R.A. knew this was a weakness which is why he was going for Ewan Dowes in pre-season and said he was after getting some 'grunt up front'.

He doesn't seem to have confidence in our front row options either if he uses Aiton/Southern there - so you can have 5/6 props on paper but if the coach does not think they are up to scratch then its worthless and he'll look elsewhere which is what is happening.