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| The country is not flushed with english talent for the exact reason of this thread....bringing in overpaid aussies who are playing NSW Cup. That is why our game is where it is.
Look at Hickey for example are you trying to tell me we could not have picked up a better player over here on half his salary ??? I think we all know the answer to that.
I dont mind if the imports are real quality.....i would welcome a Cronk or Thurston every day of the week, but a second grader and a player with more issues than Gary Glitter !!
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| Quote ="quinny"This is a wind up right ? Do you read the hull board ? Agar is renowned for NOT giving kids a chance and would rather bring in second rate or washed up aussies. There will be very few youngsters given a shot this season.'"
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| Quote ="gowerthegroap"not prepared to do that? what did we do last year? where did that get us? look around at the other clubs in the division. Their lineups are a mix of overseas imports, players with experience, and youth. A 100% British league, with British players is the dream, but at present that's all it is. It's not ideal, it's certainly not unique, but in order for us to move forward we have to do the same as other clubs. Kids can only get you so far. If we don't want a team of overseas players, but can't compete with kids, what does that leave us with? Look at the England side. It consists of overseas players for a start. This country is hardly flush with good young English talent. The club have recruited well in that market, and have a lot of British kids on our books with potential. But that's all they have right now. Players like Southern, Morrison and Lauititi provide the experience, the leadership, the drive to give these kids something to aspire to. They will get their chance, and when they do it's up to them to show that they have more than potential, and come 3 years time when players like Southern retire, they should be there on new long term contracts to step in and replace them.'"
We were forced into it last year because of finances there is no reason this year why we can't have a better balance but we don't have to go back that other way and load up on as many imports as we can get our hands on. It is not a unique situation but if you look at the 2 sides that got to the grand final this year they both have a good recent record of bringing young British players through so the players are out there. The fact that there are overseas players in the England side only backs up my point that there are far too many overseas players in SL. I'm not saying no overseas signings but there is no need to have 10 in the squad that is a backwards step for the club.
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| Quote ="gowerthegroap"not prepared to do that? what did we do last year? where did that get us? look around at the other clubs in the division. Their lineups are a mix of overseas imports, players with experience, and youth. A 100% British league, with British players is the dream, but at present that's all it is. It's not ideal, it's certainly not unique, but in order for us to move forward we have to do the same as other clubs. Kids can only get you so far. If we don't want a team of overseas players, but can't compete with kids, what does that leave us with? Look at the England side. It consists of overseas players for a start. This country is hardly flush with good young English talent. The club have recruited well in that market, and have a lot of British kids on our books with potential. But that's all they have right now. Players like Southern, Morrison and Lauititi provide the experience, the leadership, the drive to give these kids something to aspire to. They will get their chance, and when they do it's up to them to show that they have more than potential, and come 3 years time when players like Southern retire, they should be there on new long term contracts to step in and replace them.'"
So who came through to replace these from 2008?
Blanch, Martin, Drew, MacGillivary, Demetriou, Obst, Peterson, Henderson, Latu, (Watene)
Or these from 2005:
Halpenny, Demetriou, Domic, Tadulala, Jeffries, Korkidas, Solomona, Obst, Macgillivary, Henderson
Or these from 2003:
Sovatabua, Jeffries, Seers, Davis, O'Brian, Hood, Vowles, Halpenny, Slattery
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| Quote ="Tommy Duckfingers"So who came through to replace these from 2008?
Blanch, Martin, Drew, MacGillivary, Demetriou, Obst, Peterson, Henderson, Latu, (Watene)
Or these from 2005:
Halpenny, Demetriou, Domic, Tadulala, Jeffries, Korkidas, Solomona, Obst, Macgillivary, Henderson
Or these from 2003:
Sovatabua, Jeffries, Seers, Davis, O'Brian, Hood, Vowles, Halpenny, Slattery'"
Nobody, that's exactly my point. If the club are preaching that youth is the future, and 1873 is supporting that, then maybe now is the time to move in that direction. Signings like Moore and Wood demonstrate that they are looking to do so. The point being we need others to support this, and players like Wilkes and Raleigh will, as will Southern and Morrison. Last year we had kids and very little else. I don't include the likes of Semi because they were stop gaps, and Hickey was a disgrace. But I would like to think that the players we are bringing in for next year can be used in amongst the kids, and teach the kids. I am in no way disagreeing with the notion that an all British team is not the best scenario for WT, I am simply saying that right now, players like Southern and Lauititi bring what we didn't have last year, but need at this time. Now if they play every week of the year, under perform and still retain their place in the side. Then it becomes an issue.
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| Quote ="quinny"The country is not flushed with english talent for the exact reason of this thread....bringing in overpaid aussies who are playing NSW Cup. That is why our game is where it is.
Look at Hickey for example are you trying to tell me we could not have picked up a better player over here on half his salary ??? I think we all know the answer to that.
I dont mind if the imports are real quality.....i would welcome a Cronk or Thurston every day of the week, but a second grader and a player with more issues than Gary Glitter !!'"
I can see what you are trying to say, but I don't think Hickey is a good example. The club couldn't have easily picked up a better British player, for less, than what we thought/hoped we were getting. That the state he showed up in was both less and also considerably more than we expected is a related, yet different matter.
Good British players are at a premium, particularly those without criminal records or other reputational problems. Weaning ourself off journeymen, second-chancers, those with eating disorders, unknown Samoans, criminals and a whole range of other 'project players' will take a little time, particularly when are still a club for whom for every up-and-comer who does take the chance with us, there is a richer/bigger club waiting to poach.
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| Leeds and Warrington prove a point with a lower number of "overseas" players.
Strangely enough, our crowds were up last year watching a mediocre side which still included 10 imports.
I think our crowds would be as high with 2/3 marquee players only. Quality counts.
For some reason, an Australian in the NSW cup seems to be able to command a bigger salary and expenses than a UK player, as does a coach.
The expensive salaries will only force the salary cap higher in the end and lack of space in the squad will send the youth to kick and clap.
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| In an ideal world we'd be running out every week with a teamful of quality homegrown players. Sadly it isn't an ideal world. Its ok using Leeds and Warrington as examples but you are not exactly comparing like for like. Those two clubs are two of the wealthiest and most successful clubs in the division with thriving, well financed, academy structures, whilst ours has been under funded for years. Players actively want to go play for them and the get financially well rewarded for doing so. We are a club that avoided the wooden spoon by the skin of our teeth after very nearly ceasing to exist 7 or 8 months earlier because of financial problems. Hence we are still not exactly a drawcard for potential recruits. And to quote australians can claim bigger salaries than english players is simply not true. Quality english players are at such a premium that they are more often than not the highest earners in their teams. Sadly there just isn't enough quality english players to go around and so teams with limited resources like ourselves have to look at a pool of talent where better standard players don't cost the earth. Sadly that is the austrailian market. Its a phalacy to think that every overseas player that comes over here is well paid. The average SL salary is 60-70K by all accounts, many come over for much less than that yet we are paying a player like Kevin Penny close to that amount.
Don't think for a minute that just because we have a 3 year license we are out of the woods, even if Newmarket goes through. Playing a team of english kids that gets us a couple of wooden spoons in this period will put us under severe threat whether we have a shiny new home or not. We need an instant on-field improvement if we are to build our business so that in time we can compete with other clubs for good english players and just as importantly, hold on to our own club developed ones. But until that time comes we have to get the best value for money as we can. And i'm afraid that means more overseas players than we might like. But its a means to an end. Fans don't want to watch a beaten side every week like last year, if the same happened again then irreparable damage could be done. If you asked around the terraces most fans couldn't really care less where the players come from, they want results. If our young players are good enough then they'll get a game. If not then they have to strive to be so and continue to learn there trade from players who at this time are ahead of them. But in the short term there is going to have be a little patience regarding recruitment and development and then hopefully in 3 or 4 years time we will get where we want to be.
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| Well said Boyem.
Agree 100%
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| Yes think some people on here need a reality check. If anyone thought that we were going to put 13 english players and a few oversees players are seriously mistaken. We are in a massive transitional period at moment due to circumstances that we all know about. As mentioned even with 3 year superleague license we are probably still going to be known as a vunerable team until we make some good progress over the next 2 years both on and off the field. Even though putting as many english based players would suit some loyal fans it could prove to be a far greater risk than bringing in some experienced players who may help us reach greater things. There are a quite a few fans who are expecting good things from us and would probably be out the door if the going got tough. RUGBY LEAGUE FANS ARE THE MOST FICKLE FANS IN THE WORLD!!!
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| Quote ="supercat"Yes think some people on here need a reality check. If anyone thought that we were going to put 13 english players and a few oversees players are seriously mistaken. We are in a massive transitional period at moment due to circumstances that we all know about. As mentioned even with 3 year superleague license we are probably still going to be known as a vunerable team until we make some good progress over the next 2 years both on and off the field. Even though putting as many english based players would suit some loyal fans it could prove to be a far greater risk than bringing in some experienced players who may help us reach greater things. There are a quite a few fans who are expecting good things from us and would probably be out the door if the going got tough. RUGBY LEAGUE FANS ARE THE MOST FICKLE FANS IN THE WORLD!!!'"
I would expect the club could lose Tony, one of Collis or Mellars plus Southern and not be too adversely affected. That would still leave two overseas spots available for the rumoured John and Smith signing's. Not such a problem after all.
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| Hopefully over the course of the next few years, we will see quality coming out of the academy because that's the only way we'll have a decent side with mostly British players in. There's no quick fix from the position we were in but this 1873 money should push things in the right direction as far as bringing young players through our own system. If in a few years time we are still in the same position then it's the time to start asking questions.
For the upcoming year or two it's about being competitive each game and playing some attractive rugby that will get some bums on seats. Hopefully as each season goes by if everything goes to plan we can become less reliant on foreign players and more on Wakey trained ones.
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| We'll still start with more homegrown players than the national team.
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| I also agree with Boyem, most people won't care how many home grown players there are in the team on a weekend but we know from past experience you will always be given a chance at our club so I'm pretty sure all our promising youngsters will get game time it'll just be a question of how much. It was interesting to see our crowds pretty healthy last season despite our struggles on the pitch, with a much better squad able to compete again, I'm sure they'll get even healthier. My dad who lives in Crewe is on about starting up again, he's seen all our glory days of the past so if he's wanting to make an effort from Cheshire and he can't even drive then things really must be getting encouraging.
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| It's pretty easy to focus on the imports, but in reality Wakefield have probably more home grown talent IN THE LEAGUE than just about any other team, the reality is that decent English players are at such a premium and we lack the funding to keep our best players.
Currently playing we would have a 1-17 that either started at trinity or were given a second chance by the club, I am sure I don't really need to list them ..
Brough, Moore, Atkins, westwood, murphy, Pitts, griffin, Ellis, ferguson, Hudson, fox, not to mention the current squad players and all the ones that are playing in the lower leagues that nearly made it
Those so called second rate Aussies have actually kept our club in sl
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| Quote ="Lorrys daily strap"It's pretty easy to focus on the imports, but in reality Wakefield have probably more home grown talent IN THE LEAGUE than just about any other team, the reality is that decent English players are at such a premium and we lack the funding to keep our best players.
Currently playing we would have a 1-17 that either started at trinity or were given a second chance by the club, I am sure I don't really need to list them ..
Brough, Moore, Atkins, westwood, murphy, Pitts, griffin, Ellis, ferguson, Hudson, fox, not to mention the current squad players and all the ones that are playing in the lower leagues that nearly made it
Those so called second rate Aussies have actually kept our club in sl'"
Mason, Snitch, Griffin, Griffin, Wildie, Davey, Morton, Walshaw, Wood
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| Quote ="Lorrys daily strap"
Those so called second rate Aussies have actually kept our club in sl'"
Yes they have but the idea now is that clubs shouldn't need to rely on quick fix, short term, second rate overseas players. Hopefully the security of 3 years, the introduction of the 1873 lottery and the stability of the new owner will see us moving away from the need to keep using these players.
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| Quote ="Lorrys daily strap" and we lack the funding to keep our best players.
'"
Tongia, Winterstein & Leano all come over mid season in the last 2 years- how much do you recon that cost us? Flying half way round the world and relocating costs a fair few quid.
Maybe if we hadn't wasted Christ knows how many thousands of pounds on dross such as Lionel harbin, Alfie Songaro, Albert Talipue, Clinton O'Brian, Dallas Hood, Julian O'Neil, Frank Watene and many many more back in the day then we could have afforded to maybe keep the likes of Mason, Jackson, Hudson Westwood and then we wouldn't need to be drafting in the likes of Tim Smith, Vince Mellors, Sam obst (?) and other 2nd rate imports and journeymen.
Maybe with the money we are paying Mellars and Collis we could have had more of a chance of keeping Murphy.
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| Quote ="J.T"Yes they have but the idea now is that clubs shouldn't need to rely on quick fix, short term, second rate overseas players. Hopefully the security of 3 years, the introduction of the 1873 lottery and the stability of the new owner will see us moving away from the need to keep using these players.'"
The club and the coaching staff are fully aware of this need and we will hopefully see progress in this area over the coming years. The current junior players have a challenge to rise to the level required - physically and mentally - for SL - it's theirs if they want it!
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| Quote ="Tommy Duckfingers"Maybe if we hadn't wasted Christ knows how many thousands of pounds on dross such as Lionel harbin, Alfie Songaro, Albert Talipue, Clinton O'Brian, Dallas Hood, Julian O'Neil, Frank Watene and many many more back in the day then we could have afforded to maybe keep the likes of Mason, Jackson, Hudson Westwood and then we wouldn't need to be drafting in the likes of Tim Smith, Vince Mellors, Sam obst (?) and other 2nd rate imports and journeymen.'"
I think the goal is to achieve what you've described above, but there is some recognition that it can't be done this season, so there has been some recourse to journeymen and imports. If we're still doing it at the same level in years 2 and 3, I'll start to worry.
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| I accept we kept our place in SL at Cas thanks to overseas players and from my memory there was Rooney + 1 gb player in the first 13 and if not for them we would be in oblivion. In fairness to those players, it meant a lot to them as well.(what was the team that day anyone?)
Last year, with minimal funds, we unearthered Johnson and Mariano who now look to have good prospects for an SL future. Mariano was way back behind 10 or more overseas players at HKR and their fans will see this as a big loss.
I understand the thought process, but who will be our Johnson/ Mariano from this seasons signings.
If SL clubs all made a mutual agreement to reduce the numbers, regardless of residency etc, we would still support our teams as it would be a level playing field, bank balances would improve and maybe England.
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| Quote ="robbed in 68"I accept we kept our place in SL at Cas thanks to overseas players and from my memory there was Rooney + 1 gb player in the first 13 and if not for them we would be in oblivion. In fairness to those players, it meant a lot to them as well.(what was the team that day anyone?)
Last year, with minimal funds, we unearthered Johnson and Mariano who now look to have good prospects for an SL future. Mariano was way back behind 10 or more overseas players at HKR and their fans will see this as a big loss.
I understand the thought process, but who will be our Johnson/ Mariano from this seasons signings.
If SL clubs all made a mutual agreement to reduce the numbers, regardless of residency etc, we would still support our teams as it would be a level playing field, bank balances would improve and maybe England.'"
Wasnt it the Bradford game we only had March, rooney & Griff out of the 18?
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| I understand what people are saying with respect to building the squad up over a number of years to gradually include less overseas players, but my argument is that there are at least three of the current six and the potential eight overseas players who are not needed right now.
If the club forever looked to get around the loop holes they will never find themselves in a position to reduce its reliance upon them. There will always be an excuse, and there has been since the club made it back into the top flight. The only reason the young kids got their chance last season was down to the financial situation, as soon as the imports could oust them they did, and it could be argued that as they were introduced the performances of the team somewhat waned.
As I said early, drop one of Mellars or Collis, Tony and Southern and would the squad be hugely weakened? I think not.
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| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"I understand what people are saying with respect to building the squad up over a number of years to gradually include less overseas players, but my argument is that there are at least three of the current six and the potential eight overseas players who are not needed right now.
If the club forever looked to get around the loop holes they will never find themselves in a position to reduce its reliance upon them. There will always be an excuse, and there has been since the club made it back into the top flight. The only reason the young kids got their chance last season was down to the financial situation, as soon as the imports could oust them they did, and it could be argued that as they were introduced the performances of the team somewhat waned.
As I said early, drop one of Mellars or Collis, Tony and Southern and would the squad be hugely weakened? I think not.'"
Southern will be one of our best forwards next year, he is a quality player. I'd have loved Murphy to stay but to sign him would have probably cost what we are paying Mellars & Collis combined, thats the premium put on English players these days, even ones that are far from world beaters like Murphy. So which gives the most value for money to a club that can't spend the full cap yet and can't attract top class internationals? Sorry but the club are going down the only real path available right now to them if we want to be competitive. The difference this time will hopefully be that we have people in charge who know how to build a sustainable business and grow it so in three years time we can start moving down the preferred english player route. Until then we will have to grin and bear it.
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| Quote ="Theboyem"Southern will be one of our best forwards next year, he is a quality player. I'd have loved Murphy to stay but to sign him would have probably cost what we are paying Mellars & Collis combined, thats the premium put on English players these days, even ones that are far from world beaters like Murphy. So which gives the most value for money to a club that can't spend the full cap yet and can't attract top class internationals? Sorry but the club are going down the only real path available right now to them if we want to be competitive. The difference this time will hopefully be that we have people in charge who know how to build a sustainable business and grow it so in three years time we can start moving down the preferred english player route. Until then we will have to grin and bear it.'"
I know absolutely nowt about what the players earn but most things boil down to simple economics and so there is probably logic in what you say.
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