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| Quote ="Redscat"Mmmm! But what about all the previous seasons, Sacred? Your figures cover 13 games; crikey, he reffed us more than that many in ONE season!!!!!! In one period we seemed to have either him or Hicks every other game.
'"
He really didn't, he's officiated in 44 of our games since 2009 and his stats are comparable with other referres and directly and the win/loss ratio directly correlates to our form on the field and ultimate finishing position. You are starting to make yourself look daft with this now.
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| Has anyone got any links to these stats? The SL page is naff.
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| Also, I can’t remember the last time Child refereed a final.
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| Blaming the ref, no matter what proportion of games we lose, is just a case of avoiding the fact that the responsibility of performance of the team, remains with the team.
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Quote ="Willzay"Has anyone got any links to these stats? The SL page is naff.'"
www.rugbyleagueproject.org/teams ... mmary.html
Fill yer boots.
Not sure if there's a phone friendly version. You can do custom searches but better on a computer.
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Quote ="Willzay"Has anyone got any links to these stats? The SL page is naff.'"
www.rugbyleagueproject.org/teams ... mmary.html
Fill yer boots.
Not sure if there's a phone friendly version. You can do custom searches but better on a computer.
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| So 6 wins from the last 30 then unless I’m reading it wrong. And it covers Agar’s, Webster’s, Smith’s and Chester’s tenures. So different coaching staff, different playing personnel.
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| Quote ="Willzay"So 6 wins from the last 30 then unless I’m reading it wrong. And it covers Agar’s, Webster’s, Smith’s and Chester’s tenures. So different coaching staff, different playing personnel.'"
And over that time, we lost a large proportion of the games.
Just people trying to make a conspiracy out of nothing.
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| Challenge Cup
Taken from RFL site
WAKEFIELD TRINITY V BRADFORD BULLS
Friday 13th March
The Mobile Rocket Stadium | KO : 19:45
M Com P. Crashley
Time Keeper D. Mitchel
Seems like RFL not bothering with match officials this week.
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| Quote ="Sacred Cow"He really didn't, he's officiated in 44 of our games since 2009 and his stats are comparable with other referres and directly and the win/loss ratio directly correlates to our form on the field and ultimate finishing position. You are starting to make yourself look daft with this now.'"
I reckon then that from the reaction from the crowd last Friday, and at Cas ,at some of Child's decisions, that there must be about 2000 supporters as daft as I am. Sacred. You stick with your thoughts and I'll stick with mine. I presume that you believe that the waving for another six tackles after the ball rebound, and the penalty on the half-time hooter, must either be the correct decision or an error. If they were the latter then one should ask whether he is fit to referee Super League rugby matches.
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| Quote ="PopTart"And over that time, we lost a large proportion of the games.
Just people trying to make a conspiracy out of nothing.'"
Not 5 out of every 6 though eh? We can skirt around the issue as much as you like but the guy doesn't like us. IMHO the bloke has a vendetta against us.
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| Quote ="Redscat"I reckon then that from the reaction from the crowd last Friday, and at Cas ,at some of Child's decisions, that there must be about 2000 supporters as daft as I am. Sacred. You stick with your thoughts and I'll stick with mine. I presume that you believe that the waving for another six tackles after the ball rebound, and the penalty on the half-time hooter, must either be the correct decision or an error. If they were the latter then one should ask whether he is fit to referee Super League rugby matches.'"
There is a very big difference between making an error(s) and deliberately favouring one side, which is what you and some others are suggesting. Yes he probably got some things wrong, no it wasn't done deliberatlely.
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| Quote ="Sacred Cow"There is a very big difference between making an error(s) and deliberately favouring one side, which is what you and some others are suggesting. Yes he probably got some things wrong, no it wasn't done deliberatlely.'"
Yes, but his =#FF0000"errors" seem to be usually to our detriment, not the oppositions. Let's call it stalemate and agree to differ eh,Sacred.
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Quote ="Redscat"Quote Yes, but his "errors" [size=200=#FF0000[iseem[/i[/size to be usually to our detriment, not the oppositions. Let's call it stalemate and agree to differ eh,Sacred.'" '"
Humans are remarkably susceptible to confirmation bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is why the scientific method was developed so that cognitive biases can be reduced as far as possible.
You make an observation, form a hypothesis, seek to prove that hypothesis and then publish your findings and methods so that others can analyse your data and repeat your experiments/observations. This is then peer reviewed and any discrepancies can be found.
Only when it becomes the general consensus of the scientific community is it then accepted as a valid theory.
[iWe have a rota for going out to the field to collect data. My turn is Tuesday. It seems that whenever I go, it rains. After checking the weather data I confirmed that it had rained on 5 out of the last 6 Tuesday afternoons. The next week it also rained on Tuesday. (Although it was just 10 minutes of light drizzle just before I left).
What can I extrapolate from this?
It nearly always rains on a Tuesday?
It rains more often on a Tuesday?
There is a conspiracy against me by the rain gods to make it rain when I'm out in the field?
By looking more closely and dispassionately at the data I find that it actually rained [uevery[/u Friday for the last 6 weeks and looking at the annual picture, rainfall is equally likely on every day of the week.
[/i
So, back to the refs.
If you see that James Child is the ref and you 'know' he is a bad ref with a grudge against Wakefield you will be looking out for every perceived error he makes which disadvantages Wakefield. You probably won't notice the errors he makes in their favour.
So, what can we do? If we studied a Wakefield game/games reffed by James Child and went through every decision or non-decision minute-by-minute, preferably by multiple independent people, then compared results, maybe we could start to make a judgement.
Pick a game, let's do it
Or, we could rely on the stats available.
[i[u[size=150Wakefield versus Castleford 2010 - 2020[/size[/u[/i
[iAll Referees:[/i
Played 30
Won 7
Lost 23
Win Rate: 23.3%
[iJames Child:[/i
Played 9
Won 2
Lost 7
Win Rate: 22.2%
You could say that we've only won 6 out of the last 30 games with James Child in charge (20%), but that is cherry picking data and we're back to cognitive bias. It doesn't take into account which teams we were playing or the relative form/injuries of the two teams at the time.
I could also say that from the beginning of Super League until 2010 we won 86% of all our games reffed by James Child (this is true).
If one ref only reffed us against top 4 sides would his record show that he was biased against us?
[i[size=200Show me some evidence[/size[/i
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Quote ="Redscat"Quote Yes, but his "errors" [size=200=#FF0000[iseem[/i[/size to be usually to our detriment, not the oppositions. Let's call it stalemate and agree to differ eh,Sacred.'" '"
Humans are remarkably susceptible to confirmation bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is why the scientific method was developed so that cognitive biases can be reduced as far as possible.
You make an observation, form a hypothesis, seek to prove that hypothesis and then publish your findings and methods so that others can analyse your data and repeat your experiments/observations. This is then peer reviewed and any discrepancies can be found.
Only when it becomes the general consensus of the scientific community is it then accepted as a valid theory.
[iWe have a rota for going out to the field to collect data. My turn is Tuesday. It seems that whenever I go, it rains. After checking the weather data I confirmed that it had rained on 5 out of the last 6 Tuesday afternoons. The next week it also rained on Tuesday. (Although it was just 10 minutes of light drizzle just before I left).
What can I extrapolate from this?
It nearly always rains on a Tuesday?
It rains more often on a Tuesday?
There is a conspiracy against me by the rain gods to make it rain when I'm out in the field?
By looking more closely and dispassionately at the data I find that it actually rained [uevery[/u Friday for the last 6 weeks and looking at the annual picture, rainfall is equally likely on every day of the week.
[/i
So, back to the refs.
If you see that James Child is the ref and you 'know' he is a bad ref with a grudge against Wakefield you will be looking out for every perceived error he makes which disadvantages Wakefield. You probably won't notice the errors he makes in their favour.
So, what can we do? If we studied a Wakefield game/games reffed by James Child and went through every decision or non-decision minute-by-minute, preferably by multiple independent people, then compared results, maybe we could start to make a judgement.
Pick a game, let's do it
Or, we could rely on the stats available.
[i[u[size=150Wakefield versus Castleford 2010 - 2020[/size[/u[/i
[iAll Referees:[/i
Played 30
Won 7
Lost 23
Win Rate: 23.3%
[iJames Child:[/i
Played 9
Won 2
Lost 7
Win Rate: 22.2%
You could say that we've only won 6 out of the last 30 games with James Child in charge (20%), but that is cherry picking data and we're back to cognitive bias. It doesn't take into account which teams we were playing or the relative form/injuries of the two teams at the time.
I could also say that from the beginning of Super League until 2010 we won 86% of all our games reffed by James Child (this is true).
If one ref only reffed us against top 4 sides would his record show that he was biased against us?
[i[size=200Show me some evidence[/size[/i
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| Quote ="Willzay"So 6 wins from the last 30 then unless I’m reading it wrong. And it covers Agar’s, Webster’s, Smith’s and Chester’s tenures. So different coaching staff, different playing personnel.'"
That indeed covers the period from 2013 - present, most of which we were absolutely dire.
If you split it up (cherry-picking? )
[i[uWakefield matches officiated by James Child:[/u
[/i
[i=#0000FF2009-12
[/iPlayed 14
Won 8
Lost 6
[iWin Rate: 57.1%[/i
[i=#0000FF2013-16
[/iPlayed 16
Won 1
Lost 15
[iWin Rate: 6.3%
[/i
[i=#0000FF2017-19
[/iPlayed 12
Won 5
Lost 7
[iWin Rate: 41.7%[/i
[i[size=150Guess what, we were really rubbish between 2013 and 2016 - coincidence?
[/size[/i
In my cherry-picking I chose to ignore 2020 = 0%
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| Quote ="wotsupcas"Not 5 out of every 6 though eh? We can skirt around the issue as much as you like but the guy doesn't like us. IMHO the bloke has a vendetta against us.'"
Whilst respecting your right to have an opinion, do you have any evidence to support that opinion?
24 out of 30 = 4 out of 5, (not 5 out of 6)
Our actual form was, at times, worse than this.
[i2015 league season:[/i Played 23 won 3 Lost 20 (i.e. 6 out of 7)
If you're randomly selecting from form like that, you can work out the probabilities.
3 green balls twenty red balls in a bag?
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| Quote ="coco the fullback"Whilst respecting your right to have an opinion, do you have any evidence to support that opinion?
24 out of 30 = 4 out of 5, (not 5 out of 6)
Our actual form was, at times, worse than this.
[i2015 league season:[/i Played 23 won 3 Lost 20 (i.e. 6 out of 7)
If you're randomly selecting from form like that, you can work out the probabilities.
3 green balls twenty red balls in a bag?'"
So using your evidence then we really need to have James child refereeing is every week ? I ve taken a more representative data segment interviewing 50 of my rugby watching mates, this was done over a short period of time across a number of clubs , guess what 90 percent agreed he was crap !
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| Quote ="wotsupcas"Not 5 out of every 6 though eh? We can skirt around the issue as much as you like but the guy doesn't like us. IMHO the bloke has a vendetta against us.'"
Well actually, some years we would have yes.
2015 we won 3 out of 23. You can blame Child all you like but the stats do not show a problem with the ref, only the team.
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| Quote ="Kirmudgeonly"So using your evidence then we really need to have James child refereeing is every week ? I ve taken a more representative data segment interviewing 50 of my rugby watching mates, this was done over a short period of time across a number of clubs , guess what 90 percent agreed he was crap !'"
Not at all. From the data available, it appears clear that who the referee is has no impact on the result of the game. It really is irrelevant, it only matters how the team play.
Even if we accept your and your friends' opinion that he is crap, he is just as crap for both teams and this has no bearing on the result.
If you really believe an official is corrupt, put it in writing so that you can get your day in court.
#NoRefNoGame.
When you play sport, as soon as you enter the field of play you agree to abide by the rules. You also agree to comply with the decisions of the appointed arbiter of those rules: the referee.
As fans, we also need to learn to accept the decisions of the referee. Sometimes it goes for us, sometimes against.
Improving the quality of officiating is a separate issue and one for the ruling body.
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| I think some have taken this too far, time to move on I think
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| Yep, have to agree EW, …...however, plaudits to Coco for taking the time to "put some meat on the bone" and correct the conspiracy theorists
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| Quote ="coco the fullback"Improving the quality of officiating is a separate issue and one for the ruling body.'"
I think this is the crux of it - and a very different problem to the perception that a particular referee is deliberately biased against a particular team, which is dumb to begin with, and which you've debunked pretty conclusively; and kudos to you for introducing the scientific method to RL fans!
As to the quality issue - I think it's a difficult and rather circular problem, that rests primarily with the RFL and to some extent, with supporters, coaches and players. The RFL have to bear the main responsibility for the lack of professional officials - it's obviously not a sufficiently attractive career path for enough people to meet the demand - and from what I understand, they are not very well supported, and are bombarded with rule changes, interpretation changes and new directives so regularly, that they sometimes don't know how to officiate in each circumstance.
The supporters, coaches and players also have to bear some responsibility for that, because we collectively create a hostile environment for match officials, by questioning their integrity, honesty and private lives on a regular basis, often in public and often to cover our own shortcomings, or those of our team or teammates - which in turn makes it an even less attractive career path. Who wants to go through the RFL's pretty awful process of becoming a ref, only to spend every weekend being yelled at, called a w@nker and having your integrity and competence called into question by untrained pillocks with a Sky camera in their face?
I don't know what the answer is - but convincing yourself that James Child is waging a deliberate campaign against WT is not it.
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| Quote ="coco the fullback"Not at all. From the data available, it appears clear that who the referee is has no impact on the result of the game. It really is irrelevant, it only matters how the team play.
Even if we accept your and your friends' opinion that he is crap, he is just as crap for both teams and this has no bearing on the result.
If you really believe an official is corrupt, put it in writing so that you can get your day in court.
#NoRefNoGame.
When you play sport, as soon as you enter the field of play you agree to abide by the rules. You also agree to comply with the decisions of the appointed arbiter of those rules: the referee.
As fans, we also need to learn to accept the decisions of the referee. Sometimes it goes for us, sometimes against.
Improving the quality of officiating is a separate issue and one for the ruling body.'"
You may have gone to a lot of effort on the stats but dont go putting words in my mouth - at no point have I said that the referee is corrupt - so wash your mouth out with soap and discontinue your offensive statements
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| `The only official have ever said is corrupt was a certain referee that was involved in a wigan home game and if anyone thinks other then they clearly weren't at the game
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| Quote ="Kirmudgeonly"`The only official have ever said is corrupt was a certain referee that was involved in a wigan home game and if anyone thinks other then they clearly weren't at the game'"
Give me Child every time over The inept Hallibert and that Aussie get Klein, he certainly had a dislike for our club.
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| The points been well made now and the stats debunked on more than one occasion.
Nothing more to say.
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