From the reading this thread it's clear that nobody actually knows who's on the committee. There is no transparency and maybe this all goes to explain why PIRAG never really took off. I didn't contribute, but surely members have the right to a say on what happens to that money accrued?

Sorry if you are not a member of the new committe, however, your post of the 15/12/12 gives the impression that you are part of the committe and attended the meeting.

For the record John, there was no tone in my previous post other than business like, however, I am getting frustrated that there are legitimate questions being asked re PIRAG yet, for what ever reason, are not being answered.

To put it in a nutshell , my use of the word committee has confused the issue , I used it as a loose term for a group of people who had got together to do some fundraising while we waited for the ' supporters trust ' to go through the motions , I should have worded it different as there had not been a meeting after you standing down that a committee had been voted on ..... just an informal gathering wwhere we decided what to do while waitiing. Perhaps had I been of clearer mind instead of ' brainfarting ' on the new dose of opioids things wouldn't have gone this far lol. I have also looked at your previous post wrong too mistaking Business like for attitude ...... My mistake Iain.

Regarding your frustration , fair enough , you put in a hell of a lot of legwork getting it off the ground , questions are being asked and no answers are being provided. Theb simple answer is I have no idea who is ' in charg ' of pirag , the only bperson I can suggest is Mary calvert as she is / was the treasurer. I have tried to contact her but never had my calls / emails answered.

About the money raised from membership , I presume that will be handed to squadbuilder at some point ..... sooner rather than later.

well lets try and put a few things straight!!!

Yes I was heavily involved in PIRAG along with a few others, in my honest opinion PIRAG was a great idea that was created by a very passionate group of fans that had no hidden agendas other than to help the club NOT THE DIRECTORS just the club. It was never intended to go into competition with the club or Squad Builder as it was only ever intended to help by raising more much needed funds for Squad Builder, helping by building a strong volunteer group that could help maintain the ground and help out on matchdays. Long before the very first meeting was called when we started getting fans to become members the group worked very hard getting a bank account set up, ideas in place and not forgetting the work Rach put in designing the website. Things were going smoothly and after a few meetings with fans/members things started to fizzle out in terms of support, as soon as we started talking about voting on a commitee and who would be responsible for what role that was when it was clear we didn't have much support.

After numerous e-mail to members to try and sort things out with no reply we decided to pick people out from the club, members and fans that we knew were passionate about the club and have helped in the past to try and put together some sort of commitee just to get things up and running and start to raise the cash that Squad Builder needs.

Mary Calvert was asked to Chair, Margeret Proctor was asked to look after the money side of things and the rest of us was going to work as a group to arrange raffles, events and to try and create a volunteer team.

Just before I continue, Iain it is quite easy to come on here and paint yourself out to be the good guy that is standing up for the members and to be honest I don't really want to get into a slanging match with you but if I remember correctly you left because me, you and the others were finding it hard to work together and when asked for information on members to carry on taking the group forward you have made it difficult. As far as I'm aware the only person that has the bank account, log in details for twitter and facebook along with all the other info is IAIN??
Rach has the details for the website and I am sure she wouldn't mind posting things on there if asked.

PIRAG and Sqaud Builder could be fantastic for the club if people would attend meetings and help arrange things and show some interest, its easy to come on here and ask whats going on and why isn't this done and who's doing this but we all felt like we were banging our heads against a brick wall.

Now for the reason why I took a step back from it all and I think why others did too, oh and for the doubters or the people that think I have an axe to grind just ask the people that attended the meeting I am going to tell you about.
A meeting was called to meet the directors to see what support we had and what we would be allowed to do on a matchday in terms of raising funds. Myself, Mike Smith, Margeret Proctor and I'm sorry I cant remember the other guys name who was there but we met with Gary Fawcett and Pete Spencer. The meeting was going well until once again the true colours of our fantastic board shone through. I aren't speaking for anyone but for us as fans that care about the clubs best interest and only trying to help to be sat at a table and be continously insulted was the final straw for me, the comments made from Mr Spencer was I have more money than you to Mike Smith and this was said numerous times through out the meeting, Mike smith was also challenged by Mr Spencer on what have you ever done for this place which to be honest my jaw hit the floor as Mike answered take a look around you because that is what we did

After numerous comments of I dont care what the fans think, Im not bothered if the fans like me or not and this is our club Mrs Proctor said if it wasn't for SB last year you wouldn't have probably had the players you got in Korki, obst, semi, barnet etc. Not forgetting that this lady has worked very hard and a lot of unpaid hours putting SB together, organising events, standing on the gates before games handing out leaflets, signing up new members, letters out to members when needed, birthday cards, keeping an audit trail of everything, dealing with the banking and many many more tasks only to be told by Mr Spencer that they would manage without SB and he coulod have bought all the players himself and when aske well why didn't you his reply was I didn't want to.
More and more shocking stuff was said and this post is long enough without boring you of all the details but for now that is why I have pulled away because they were putting too many hurdles in front of us regarding raising funds and after listening to the way they disrespected everyone around the table especially Mrs Proctor that was it for me.

These guys really believe they are taking this club to super league and they also believe that they are running the club better than its ever been run before and are the helm of a top championship club.

One last thing Mr Spencer also stated at the table that Cougar Mania was a failure



Try work that one out.

" Cougarmania was a failure " .... The mind boggles !
He must have been watching a different Cougarmania is all I can think of lol

Has a nice staightjacket been found for Mr Spencer yet? Sounds like it would be a useful addition to his wardrobe, as it is used for the mentally crazy sometimes!

The comments made by Mr Spencer, to be honest nothing surprises me any more. Did have high hopes for Gary at the start but now feel very disappointed. If you volunteer to do anything with this club be prepared to be covered in turd. From a great height. Such a shame as there is a lot of people whose heart is in this club.

It's such a crying shame that this is where PIRAG now stands.

A properly constituted and supported INDEPENDANT supporters group could do so much for this club (like KISA before it). There are other instances where the club they are trying to support don't offer support in return, or even worse, see them as some sort of threat. Unfortunately it quite often comes down to [i"clash of personality"[/i.

Cutting your own throat to spite your face, springs to mind.

Ok people.

Lets not turn this into a slanging match. Lets try to keep it civil. Please

Rob, Thank you for your post it certainly makes for illuminating reading, however, there are a number of instances in your post where you are ignorant of the facts or being deliberately disingenuous and these need to be cleared up.


1. The information you elude to was meant to be held and up dated by Mary Calvert as she was in charge of taking membership forms at the club and via the web site of which I had no access to. An e-mail with the membership list was forwarded to Mike Smith as well as the had copy membership forms and other documentation on my departure. I fail to see how this is being obstructive and if you have any issue with the quality of the information I suggest you take this up with Mary Calvert. I would point out that 5 individuals whose contact details were included on the list were not contacted. I will take it that this was an oversight and not a selected invitation to your meetings.

2. Re passwords. Rachel Pressley was given the Twitter and Facebook passwords to add as links on to the website. I suggest you look at the web site which evidences the fact.
The bank ac log in I still have, and have never been requested to provide it, however, Mary Calvert has from day one had possession of the cash box, Cheque Book and Paying In Book as, again, she was responsible for processing membership applications via walk ins at the club and internet.

To get back to topic. You have now confirmed that Mary Calvert (Chairperson), Rob Weir and Mike Smith, as you both attended the meeting with the directors, are in control of PIRAG going forward and any questions re the group should be directed to those indviduals. Thank you for the clarification.

Firstly, Iain this is why you parted from the group because people found it hard to work with you along with a few other reasons. I am not getting dragged into a verbal fight on here with you even though I admit I would enjoy it. Everything that I stated in my previous post is what I am lead to believe by others in the group, unfortunately as we found the support just wasn't there and it wasn't always the directors that were questioning our motives but a few on here as well which we found very dissapointing because all we were trying to do was to help, create more funds for the playing side and try to make it this local commuinty club that it once was which is something the current board keep shouting about but apart from the fantastic work that Your Sporting Chance does headed by Mary Calvert in the town there is nothing else going on or if there is I haven't heard anything about it. I agree with what dreamer said about what could have been with the right support and input from the club with regards to PIRAG, all you have to do is look at some of the other clubs websites and see what their supporters clubs do and raise for their clubs because it's fantastic. I think Leigh last year in Oct/Nov handed over for player recruitment about £30,000, ok they have been going a number of years but this is what can be achieved and this is how we see the likes of top championship players or super league boys coming to our club but then again as we were told the club could manage without a Squad Builder contributing to the team as they can afford the players them selves



Hand on heart I would love to roll my sleeves up and get stuck in with PIRAG and a supporters group but when you have individuals that have no respect or appreciation for what you are trying to do for them and the club and only see you as a threat or someone thats making up a master plan to take of the world then its impossible. unfortuantely and this is a fact our board just cant see the bigger picture only that they are taking us to super league



Iain as I have said I could reply to most of what you have stated or eluded to but it would end up in an argument and I honestly cant be bothered, I would just like to say as I have once told you before. Please do not talk down to me, talk to me like a child or use your silly text book words. You know I dont take lightly to that.

All the best

Could some body give me a hand,and pass me a ladder,I am going to have to climb of the fence that I have been sat on for the last 6 months,I will have to say I have enjoyed reading everyone's post in the recent tough times and I am pleased that people care so much about the Cougars and that good frank debate is alive and well on here no matter what your views are.
The reason for the post really is just to back up, "On The Terrace,s" post regarding what he had experienced at the club ,I had a real feeling of history repeating its self,for those who don't know me I was one of the founding members of KISA,and I am saddened to say "On The Terrace's" post had a familiar ring to it,I don't wish to discuss certain aspects on this forum of what happened back in 2002 ,but would gladly talk to anyone in person on what happened from KISA's and my point of view,(I do use my real name on here so I am not that hard to find on match days,in the bar or behind the sticks).
Saying Am not going to discuss on here KISA isn't strictly true,I will post an article from Feb 2002 which is from a local archive, its a story taken from a local district News paper,(thanks to a certain someone on here who passed me this a few years ago) I think it says a lot about peoples attitudes, and really looks like sadly nothing has changed at the Club. Any-time I get the urge to get involved down there I tend to read this(see below) and then think "maybe not",but hats off to all you guys who do volunteer your the true back bone of the club.

COUGARS;Bitter War Of Words
Open warfare has broken out between Cougar chairman Neil Spencer and KISA-Keighley Independent Supporters Association.
The independent supporters club was launched when the old club collapsed with huge debts,but relations have been 'frosty' since the new club Cougars 2001 was launched by Mr Spencer and fellow director Colin Farrar late last year.
Tension boiled over this week when Mr Spencer declared "The time has come,for the sake of true Cougar supporters,to put the record straight. The so called KISA, do nothing at all to help the Keighley Cougars financially or otherwise,on the contrary they are a hindrance.They are the greatest wingers about anything and everything"
He also threatened to take legal action against the group for selling merchandise in competition to the club.
He added;"They are setting up a lottery in competition to our own,not only that they are pinching the clubs existing agents and members.What kind of co-operation is that"
Mr Spencer said true supporters should ask where their money was going,and join the official Supporters Club.
His statement ended"If you are a true KISA member go away and annoy someone else,you are certainly not wanted here"
But KISA chairman Martin Whiteley hit back with claims, that the cub had said it did not want there help"Almost every club in rugby league has an independent supporters club and many provide very valuable support.We wanted something totally different to help the club,and the whole of rugby league in Keighley.
"We applied for a small lotteries licence to run fund raising events,but the application was rejected because Mr Spencer said they didn't want our money.We have already sponsored a player and bought junior season tickets to give away as prizes,so some money has already gone to the club."
"We have over 100 members,about 10 percent of the home crowd, and most supporters who travel to away matches are members of KISA,we want to work for the good of rugby league in the town and we should all be pulling in the same direction."
He added; "I am prepared to meet Mr Spencer and the Official Supporters Club to try and clear the air"
February 15th 2002

Just a foot note on the above,we did meet various people from the club on several occasions and tried to find the middle ground but the door was firmly shut on KISA,hence many of the members did take Mr Spencer up on his offer and basically went away,some I know to this day have not set foot in Cougar Park since those days,and it wasn't just single members they lost,it was also family and friends that no longer came to the ground.I personally did stick around with a few other's that I know who post on here,the reason being I love the game,I love the Cougars but most of all love the crack and the people I stand with,a few beers good company and Rugby League what better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.
Just a bit of advice to the PIRAG guys, KISA was well run well supported and had some cracking money making ideas,but most of all we were all friends and had the same goal,yes there were arguments but on the whole we were a united bunch,and showed a united front,and we were stronger for it,but even with all that behind us we still fell well short of our goals,and in the end it still ended in tears.
My advice I am afraid is unless your bullet proof thick skinned, don't mind upsetting half the people down there and missing the game because your to busy behind the scenes, then just pay your gate money,maybe even buy a season ticket,have a few beers,treat yourself to a snack or food,even buy a club shirt or some merchandise(if you can find any,sorry couldn't help myself), don't forget the half time draw,even bring a friend that hasn't been before or for a while,if I have missed anything apologies,but you get the drift, and of course don't forget there is a game on,after all it is the whole point,so just enjoy to me what is the best dam game in the world "RUGBY LEAGUE".
Hang on someone pass me my ladder I am getting back on my fence,although I have just read that back and I am not sure I even got of it,must be going soft in my old age.

Can I suggest this thread is locked to avoid this getting out of hand?

One of many definitions of the word Forum "a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest" sort of thought that what was going on here.

In fairness Shaun I think it's gone a bit beyond that don't you think?

Sorry you maybe right,but its a bit like a traffic accident when you drive past,you no its wrong but you do tend to slow down for a better look,on the plus side I am now a little clearer on the problems that PIRAG have, and who is who!

Why?

This is a fans forum, not an appreciation society



Sometimes things need answering in public to prevent the chinese whispers syndrome.

As long as no one breaks the AUP what's the problem.

If someone has something personal to say they can use the PM (private message) system.

Fair point, but I found it uncomfortable reading and you could see a clear escalation in the posts and wondered what may come next. If some people wanted those questions answering I'm sure they would have attended the meetings, which it's clear they didn't. PIRAG looks to me to be going nowhere fast so I'd argue that other settling some personal difference's and airing their dirty laundry, what is the purpose now of this continuing.

That's just my opinion and I'm happy to stand corrected. If people see the need to continue it and it stays within the AUP (I've got a funny feeling it won't if continued) then crack on!

If people dont stop looking for a chance to drag people into a slanging match. It will be locked.

Why dont you arrange a meeting. Then you can have a go at each other there instead of here.

Thanks for reading this post. Lets play nice.

Good post Shaun, a bit of deja vu, methinks.

A personality clash caused the problems last time and it looks like they have done the same again.

Just looking around RL at some of the people in charge of clubs shows that they have ego's the size of Blackpool Tower. The word INDEPENDENT scares the hell out of them. They are distrustful of those people and things they cannot control or things they perceive as a threat. On the flip side, it's no good setting up an independent committee that has characters that are the same.

To put things in perspective, I read the Leigh forum and it says the Leigh Supporters Trust has raised in excess of £350,000 for the club - not to be sneezed at.

Good leaders find ways of making things work, and that applies equally to those of clubs and independent groups. This can be quite difficult because the very reason some Independent groups are set up is precisely because they don't have faith in the clubs directors. This causes friction from the start.

If the club wants help from a bigger proportion of fans, then they need to open their eyes. Many people do not want to pump money into a bottomless bucket when they can't see exactly what it is going to be used for.

You might motivate people who don't normally contibute if they thought they were buying player "X". But tell them it's for a "radio mike" or "going toward the bills" then they might be less enthusiastic.

It's a crying shame that this club cannot work with an independent supporters group.

EDIT: This isn't me having a go at anyone, just reflecting on human nature.

I thought that was your job

@ shaunw - Thanks for that post , interesting read under the circumstances.

@Dominance - Not sure locking it is the right thing to do ,so long as rules are kept to
then it would be best to keep it running. IMO Ofcourse.

I dont want to lock it. But people are clearly using this thread as a excuse to vent things. Its up to the people posting on it to make sure it stays open.

PRAG - a complete joke! , should have just left it to Squad Builder to raise funds ( Looks like PRAG is dragging down Squad Builder as well now)

1:Squad builder did so well in previous years
2: PARG didnt work so why try jumping on the back of something that does and joining in with them only to make people not trust Squad Builder.
3: There is money floating in PRAG???? STILL NO ONE AS THE ANSWERS TO WHERE THIS MONEY IS OR WHO AS ACCESS TO THIS MONEY .
4:SIMPLE HAND IT TO SQAUD BUILDER AND HAVE DONE WITH IT (this is becoming very embarrasing)

Oh well i did try.